Structuring multiple lessons

[VGB]

Plyometrics would be my guess John.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Plyometrics would be my guess John.

Regards

Vince

Don't think so Vince, plyometrics would not achieve the objective he targets in his bat speed example. I'd go with banding, but he may prefer something else. Would love to know.

John

[VGB]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1317824/

https://tyleranzmann.com/fitness/upper- ... -velocity/

https://carolynhettrich.com/wp-content/ ... 80%9D-.pdf

This piece of advice from the last article is repeated in several articles and is coherent with the ecological approach to perception and skill acquisition:

According to the SAID principle (specific adaptation to imposed demands), an effective strength and conditioning program must be sport specific (16). In order for a program to be sport specific, it must closely mimic the biomechanical and physiological demands of the sport.

https://www.bettermovement.org/blog/2009/0110111

There is also something similar in the stretching books with the best warm up before stretching is low intensity performance of the sport that you are preparing for.

regards

Vince

[John Waters]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1317824/

https://tyleranzmann.com/fitness/upper- ... -velocity/

https://carolynhettrich.com/wp-content/ ... 80%9D-.pdf

This piece of advice from the last article is repeated in several articles and is coherent with the ecological approach to perception and skill acquisition:

According to the SAID principle (specific adaptation to imposed demands), an effective strength and conditioning program must be sport specific (16). In order for a program to be sport specific, it must closely mimic the biomechanical and physiological demands of the sport.

https://www.bettermovement.org/blog/2009/0110111

There is also something similar in the stretching books with the best warm up before stretching is low intensity performance of the sport that you are preparing for.

regards

Vince

Hi Vince,

Strength and flexibility are essentials and must be specific to casting. We don't have that specificity. Stretch and release rotational patterning for line speed generation, using banding, fully conforms to a SAID principle approach to casting. Plyometrics are great but they do not address the specific requirement of separation raised by Rob Gray in the video about Constraints Led Approach referred to in post 58. Gray details CLA examples when he discusses baseball hitting. Strength and flexibility programs, including plyometrics don't deliver that specific CLA target. They are important but are one component of the full picture. Banding with one end fixed is one process that provides internalisation of the separation concept for fly casting, but I'd love to know about others. I'll email Rob Gray for comment, I would love to get his opinion about casting, given his work in a similar sport like baseball.

For me fly casting specific CLA strategies are prerequisite to casting technique becoming more compliant to biomechanic principles.

One important aspect of casting that both casting warmup and casting training programs should include for both performance and injury minimisation, is rod arm layback. Unfortunately it gets little attention, it should.

John

[VGB]

Hi John

Plyometrics are great but they do not address the specific requirement of separation

I was answering your question about stretch and release at Post 60

The first article I linked contained the reference to therabands for rehabilitation:

Upper extremity functional plyometric exercise in sport-specific patterns can be an important component of a throwing athlete's rehabilitation. We discuss several plyometric exercises, using the Inertial Exercise System, the Plyo-ball, and the Theraband.

As I understood it, the separation issue in the video is one of poor patterning that could lead to injury and was targetted at the skills learning continuum. Maybe it is competition specific but I am not following how you fit your banding exercise into the CLA that incorporates implicit learning, external focus of attention and positive transfer. Please could you fill in the gaps with that and rod layback, I still do not know what that looks lie?

Thanks in advance

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi Vince,

Separation causes the stretch and release mechanism. The point about separation is having the hips rotate in a different sequence to the shoulders, which stretches the torso musculature, which then sets up external shoulder rotation and stretch across the pecs. This allows that stored energy to be transferred into internal rotation of the shoulder then into the arm and wrist. That is what Gray is referring to in his baseball hitting example. Equally, he could have used baseball pitching or javelin throwing to exemplify the benefits of rotational separation of the proximal joints. He could have used either recreational and competition fly casting for distance to exemplify the torso separation principle. He did not use plyometrics in his examples of CLA for baseball hitting and I suspect he would not use it for a fly casting movement example. It would not achieve the desired outcome, speed and force yes, sequencing no. What I would be interested in knowing is what would be the equivalent of the longer bat or constrained stance in a fly casting example of CLA. What Gray is referring to in the video is using proximal to distal sequencing to generate bat speed. You could replace his example of baseball hitting with fly casting and use rod speed as an equally valid and relevant analogy. He suggests using a longer bat or a constrained stance as examples of CLA strategies to improve batting performance. I don't think using a longer rod would work with casting but a different stance may. Using an anchored band replicates the torso separation in the throwing action so is very relevant to implicit skill learning. It needs little or no instruction and is very much athlete focused, both of which I believe are key components of implicit sport learning. It also can be used to transition to external cueing, one I use is a trebuchet. There may be better cues to describe that flailing action of the forearm as it moves from external to internal rotation, but that's my best attempt at an analogy. Have a look at a baseball pitcher or javelin thrower and focus on the external shoulder rotation achieved. That range of external shoulder rotation is sometimes referred to in other sports as layback. It is simply a case of increasing the angular velocity of the forearm, a key determinant of performance in both sports and I contend, should be an equally important determinant in casting.

In any video of pitching or throwing, the forearm layback position captures our attention, but look at what the athlete does with his legs and torso to achieve that position. The arm just falls into that position, some coaches term it "dead arm". I view the arm as only coming "alive" when all that stretch is released. Just like the rope that attaches the basket of a trebuchet to the arm of the trebuchet. Accelerating the rod side body segments and braking the haul side, paired segments allows us to transfer energy through the body and into the rod and line and a key component of that transfer is torso separation.

I've probably caused more confusion with this post.

If so, my apologies,

John

[VGB]

Hi John

I think what confused me was Post 60 that implied a single stretch and release mechanism, you have clarified that in your last post, thank you.

I don't think using a longer rod would work with casting but a different stance may. Using an anchored band replicates the torso separation in the throwing action so is very relevant to implicit skill learning. It needs little or no instruction and is very much athlete focused, both of which I believe are key components of implicit sport learning.

To a degree, I think that we achieve the rod length change with variable stiffness rods and I do play with stance a lot both in my own practice and with students, but my teaching objectives may be very different to you. For instance, I do not see a use for the anchored band in my teaching because I do not think that it adequately represents the required power application for the recreational angling casts. Moreover, I think from personal experience that there is generally an over reliance on the rod hand generating line speed for many recreational casters that may well contribute to causing, or aggravating shoulder conditions. Better technique would lead to less anglers ending up on the physios couch.

In any video of pitching or throwing, the forearm layback position captures our attention, but look at what the athlete does with his legs and torso to achieve that position. The arm just falls into that position, some coaches term it "dead arm". I view the arm as only coming "alive" when all that stretch is released.

With students, I try to get them to "leave the rod" behind as the torso turns but I find that early rotation of the rod is a more common problem even with this cue. There is probably a psychological root cause but I haven't got to the bottom of it yet, engrained habits are a pig to resolve. For myself, I sometimes practice a step from open to closed stance for the delivery cast. The reason for this is to destabilise my own long carry solution with the intent to increase my own movement range and change haul timing. I do feel the torso stretch that you describe but it's not something that I have ever used in a lesson.

regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

I've probably caused more confusion with this post.

I doubt it John.

If there is confusion it comes from two sources. One is that some of the concepts and terminology being used are still largely unfamiliar to the casting instructor community and the second is lack of context.

As an example, we may use direct instruction in a demo but indirect instruction in a one to one, we may give explicit instruction when describing a drill which produces an implicit learning outcome, we may use more internal cueing with an expert than with a recreational caster, there may be blocked or variable practice, blocked and variable, hybrid blocked/variable, depending on the ultimate objectives of the caster. It is the lesson context which determines the mix of techniques an instructor is going to apply.

The techy terminology makes teaching sound terribly complicated but it really isn't, if you know what each thing does then providing you can distinguish the casting equivalent of nut, a screw or a nail you can pick up pretty quickly which tool to use. It is simply a case of individual instructors assessing the needs of a caster and deciding whether to use the instructional equivalent of a spanner a screwdriver or a hammer to help achieve their personal goals.

More to the point, you can predict which tools are going to be more effective than others in different contexts. In a demo it is near impossible to manage constraints in a way where a constraints led approach would be effective, this is classic "sage on a stage" stuff, but, in a one to one or even a small group session then an instructor can design drills and practice routines that better promote self organisation, individual exploration and problem solving.

As Paul has pointed out earlier in this thread, instructional techniques are currently largely uniform, employing direct instruction from demo to single caster sessions. I think that's just because instructors haven't been informed that there's any other viable way to do it...when there is

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

I doubt it John.

If there is confusion it comes from two sources. One is that some of the concepts and terminology being used are still largely unfamiliar to the casting instructor community

Phew!

I was beginning to think it was just me.

Ya'll would not believe how much stuff I've downloaded recently due to Googling some of your abbreviated terminology in this thread!

[Paul Arden]

It’s late here and I have to be up early for a zoom-zoom. Haven’t watched the video yet because I was on a beer and wine run for Mika and Satu who are arriving on Saturday.

Don’t know how to get there with constraints, John, and I will think about that. Quite some time ago you asked about external cueing for the stretch. How about pushing forward against the ground while imagining that you are pulling a heavy weight (camel/crocodile/swagman) with the flyline. Not pulling with the hand, but instead initiating by pushing the ground away with the feet. I think that might create that stretching feeling/pattern you are looking for.

Incidentally I often tell people to fully stretch out. I don’t think of that as an internal cue because you can tell them to reach out to a distance target.

Anyway if we can’t avoid an internal description for discussing body movement I think that’s OK, so long as we provide an external cue that fits once they understand the pattern we are trying to generate.

Must sleep. Have fun!

Cheers, Paul