Structuring multiple lessons

[VGB]

Hi John

How do you describe "better performance" for recreational anglers in the UK?

Adaptability, to enable them to deliver the fly where they need to, in the desired presentation using the range of available equipment in the environment that they are likely to fish. It means giving them the ability to solve their own problems.

would suggest anyone searching the web for instruction may not have your insights into the details of Dan’s curriculum vitae.

Many people search the web for medical advice without checking to see if the source got their doctorate from the University of Hamsters. I can’t regulate the internet or how people gather information.

How about Fly Casting 101 by Jeff Wagner? How do you equate the contribution of Jeff’s hips and shoulders compared to his arm movement to line speed? He defines distance casting as “whatever is longer for you” so that covers quite a range of recreational fishing distances. Good definition.

I don’t have time to review the video now, I’m on the road for a couple of days and teaching after work. It is entirely possible that maximising line speed is not his objective and that distance casting for him is limited by his fishing objective. I spend a lot of my time fishing 2-3 wt lines with 7-8ft rods, occasionally with bamboo, what should I classify distance fishing cast as? Would the coastal sea trout casters have the same distance is mind? In context, his answer is reasonable given the inherent variability in the sport.

As I have mentioned before, I view excessive rod hand speed as the cause of many problems for recreational anglers. I can reach the vast majority of my desired fishing distances with comparatively modest rod hand speeds. The threshold speed for me is determined by the objective.

A lot but that does not impact the that reflects the casting model’s applicability and in this case it is highly applicable.

You may find that you get more purchase if you don’t present it in terms of distance casting. Can you explain how you would teach an underpowered curve cast using your model?

We are all guilty of throwing these generalisations about without clarification. Maybe that's both a constraint of forums or reflective of our cognitive capacity. It is the latter with me.

I doubt it John but can you describe the concept of late rotation using text, any simpler than \\\\\\\/?

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

No.

What about if he’s casting like that but without the duck tape?

It depends. Who is this person?, what can he do already?, what is he trying to improve? Is he freezing? Why does he believe he can’t control his wrist…what blithering idiot advised him to put a strap or tape on his arm ? can he swing a bag of potatoes around his head ?

Context determines how error tolerant you’re going to be.

Let’s say it’s someone who watched the FFI instructor workshop.

[John Waters]

Hi John

How do you describe "better performance" for recreational anglers in the UK?

Adaptability, to enable them to deliver the fly where they need to, in the desired presentation using the range of available equipment in the environment that they are likely to fish. It means giving them the ability to solve their own problems.

That's one definition, different, but no better than mine. Both are opinions only.

would suggest anyone searching the web for instruction may not have your insights into the details of Dan’s curriculum vitae.

Many people search the web for medical advice without checking to see if the source got their doctorate from the University of Hamsters. I can’t regulate the internet or how people gather information.

What verifiable and reputable source did you access that allowed you to arrive at your conclusion that Dan's instruction was "a figure of fun"? I presume was not just opinion because as we all know opinions can be subjective.

How about Fly Casting 101 by Jeff Wagner? How do you equate the contribution of Jeff’s hips and shoulders compared to his arm movement to line speed? He defines distance casting as “whatever is longer for you” so that covers quite a range of recreational fishing distances. Good definition.

I don’t have time to review the video now, I’m on the road for a couple of days and teaching after work. It is entirely possible that maximising line speed is not his objective and that distance casting for him is limited by his fishing objective. I spend a lot of my time fishing 2-3 wt lines with 7-8ft rods, occasionally with bamboo, what should I classify distance fishing cast as? Would the coastal sea trout casters have the same distance is mind? In context, his answer is reasonable given the inherent variability in the sport.

He clearly stated his objective was "whatever is longer for you". All the throwing research links distance to release speed and when I surveyed MCIs and national casting sport coaches in 2022, about the determinants of fly distance coaching technique, performance, coaching. Interesting responses about line speed. I suggest distance casting is classified by an individual attempting to cast his line/fly as far as he can. Again that's only my opinion. What's your opinion of how distance casting should be classified. I would like to read how you classify distance fishing casting as. Also would like to read your definition of completion fly distance casting so I can better appreciate how they are different in movement.
Look forward to your review of the two distance casting videos I have suggested are arm centric. I appreciate you don't rate Dan, but I would welcome your review of the casting technique he displays in the segment I have identified. As to a coastal angler, how do you think they would classify their distance casting objective? Is it different from "whatever is longer for you"?

As I have mentioned before, I view excessive rod hand speed as the cause of many problems for recreational anglers. I can reach the vast majority of my desired fishing distances with comparatively modest rod hand speeds. The threshold speed for me is determined by the objective.

I suggest that is the essence of good distance casting instruction i.e. continuous improvement of an individual's casting distance without the negative outcomes of excessive hand speed as they transition through the different stages of skill development. I'd welcome any specific detail how to achieve that objective.

A lot but that does not impact the that reflects the casting model’s applicability and in this case it is highly applicable.

You may find that you get more purchase if you don’t present it in terms of distance casting. Can you explain how you would teach an underpowered curve cast using your model?

My apologies for "the that reflects" gobbledygook. It should have been "A lot of that does not impact the casting model's applicability. It is highly applicable." Did someone mention delirium in a previous post? How would you present full casting movement range and sequencing if not through distance casting. Short line casting and underpowered curve casts do not come anywhere near an individual's movement range limits. Even in Jeff Wagner's video he uses his distance cast to illustrate extended ranges of motion in his comparison of " a short cast to a long cast". Be interested in which cast you would select to illustrate the extended ranges of motion that fly casting provides for.
The proximal to distal casting model provides a framework for both the standard and the exception casting stroke. An underpowered curve cast, underslung cast, wiggle cast, tuck cast and all the other presentation casts are variations to standard proximal to distal casting instruction. That's how I'd structure such a lesson i.e. begin with the standard movement, develop the exception movement, compare and contrast both, reinforce the differences through isolating the variances and set a training plan to enhance the client's skill acquisition with inbuilt performance indicators for the client to self assess progress into the future. How would your teaching plan for an underpowered curve cast differ from mine? Knowing the deficiencies in my lesson structure would definitely assist me becoming a better instructor.

Stay safe on the road Vince,

John

We are all guilty of throwing these generalisations about without clarification. Maybe that's both a constraint of forums or reflective of our cognitive capacity. It is the latter with me.

I doubt it John but can you describe the concept of late rotation using text, any simpler than \\\\\\\/?

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

Let’s say it’s someone who watched the FFI instructor workshop

[John Waters]

Apologies Vince, I did not get to the \\\\\/ part of your post, gotta run but will tonight.

John

[Paul Arden]

They’ve been told that the “proper way” to cast is not to use any wrist. Dont think this is uncommon. Many US instructors are being told this and consequently some are teaching it. Now the rod is an extension of the forearm.

If it works, do you change it?

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

This could get philosophical

Is competition and angling technique, instruction and training similar or dissimilar?

It’s dissimilar.

How and why?

John

Let’s have a look at similarities first.

I think we could agree that A 100’ cast with a 5# bears some similarities to a 30’ cast with a 5#. The processes are “similar”, in fact, in the most general sense, all casts are similar. At this level of analysis all casts are the same…forwards/backwards, off it goes. Everything after that is variation on a theme and the very fact that there is a theme implies similarity. I would agree that there’s similarity on that basis.

A human being bears some similarities with other human beings. In humans too, processes are “similar” both physiologically and cognitively. If we apply the same level of analysis as we did above, everyone is a variation on a theme and so I agree there’s similarity on that basis too.

This is very helpful to instructors because, if we know that casting processes are similar and we know learning processes are similar, we can devise common ways to teach.

And that’s largely what we’ve done…we even acknowledge the first obvious difference by teaching a model cast at 30’ to beginners before teaching a model 140' cast to experts. The argument of course is that in order to produce a 140' cast you have to learn the basics on the way…and this is quite true. On the basis the basics are the same, as we established above, this would imply that teaching the 30' to ordinary angkers and teaching the 140' to competition experts lies on a common learning continuum so teaching one has to be similar to teaching the other. It simply becomes a matter of time as performance improves incrementally and critical deviation from the model cast reduces.

Thats the philosophy that underpins current instructional behaviour. It is a reductive process where performance error is determined by deviation from the model. Teach a basic model cast and reduce performance error. It is, in essence, the basis for coaching competition casting too. If you subscribe to this as a universal framework for instruction then, I agree, there are many more similarities than differences.

Got to come back to this later with the second half John…work has intervened.

[Stoatstail50]

Quicker than I thought

First big difference is that, in the teaching framework I like to use, there is no model cast. I certainly have learning and performance objectives and I totally accept the idea of general patterning but there is no model cast. This is because there is no model cast that meets the environmental variability a caster will meet in the wild. A competition caster, working on their performance in highly constrained conditions has a limited number of optimal behaviours, whereas a recreational caster has to have many. This means that limiting model behaviour is an advantage for the competition caster but a disadvantage for a recreational one.

Resulting in teaching and practice programs that, at this level of analysis, are dissimilar.

On top of this, a directly reductive process works for experts refining personal performance but is much less effective for non experts developing a wide range of new skills. Beginners and experts have different learning tolerances and different behavioural patterns. Meaning that a lesson at one end of the scale is going to be dissimilar to a lesson at the other. In fact, the reason we see so many issues with fixed wrists and one size fits all mono strokes is because reductive techniques have been used too soon. That happens because there is an assumption that if technique x works for experts then it must work for beginners too…what’s good for the goose is what’s good for the gander.

Unfortunately, it isn’t…so teaching and practice programs are, at this level of analysis, dissimilar.

I’m all in for error reduction in competition casting or assessment preparation but I’m not so enthusiastic for recreational purposes when error is much more highly objective dependent. What is a tracking error in your competition cast might be extremely handy in a presentation cast. In the recreational environment, being able to reproduce what would be errors in the model cast paradigm can be very useful indeed so, I don’t teach people how to avoid “errors” I teach them how to make them on purpose.

This is conceptually quite dissimilar to teaching error free performance for competition.

If you take these dissimilarities, one where personal objectives are divergent and one where capabilities and experience are driving differences in teaching techniques and over lay them, then there is a clear and obvious set of differences between an expert refining performance for competition and a recreational angler expanding control for fishing. Just because what we teach, the underlying patterns of behaviour, are similar it doesn’t mean that everything else is automatically similar too.

Only in my opinion of course

[Stoatstail50]

If it works, do you change it?

It depends

I’d take the strap off if that’s what you mean.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

I’m all in for error reduction in competition casting or assessment preparation but I’m not so enthusiastic for recreational purposes when error is much more highly objective dependent. What is a tracking error in your competition cast might be extremely handy in a presentation cast. In the recreational environment, being able to reproduce what would be errors in the model cast paradigm can be very useful indeed so, I don’t teach people how to avoid “errors” I teach them how to make them on purpose.


Only in my opinion of course

Nope!

Not only your opinion!