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Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

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VGB
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Re: Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

#31

Post by VGB »

I think for most people, seeing a series of actions and reproducing them is a much lower cognitive load than trying to recall a series of discrete actions as part of a list. Casting also carries out actions in parallel like turning our head to see the back cast whilst still moving the body which further complicates a verbal instruction. That said, I will add verbal cues even if it is just a noise to add emphasis to an instructional point I want to draw attention to.

Mirroring can also be wound into the dance, it’s a part of our non verbal communication. I wrote a dot on it a while back:

https://thecuriousflycaster.com/2021-an ... ctors-cut/
Our posture during discussions should be similar to what we would adopt in a job interview. Show you are engaged by leaning slightly forward when making a point and adopt a listening posture if the student is talking to you. Listening posture cues include smiling, leaning forward, a slight tilt of the head and mirroring.
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Vince
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Re: Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

#32

Post by Paul Arden »

It would be interesting to see some studies. It’s obviously not constraints learning, and quite the reverse. I don’t recall reading research into mirroring teaching in any of the books. From my campfire experiences, which are numerous by the way, I don’t think it’s very sticky. Fantatsic at the time!

Cheers, Paul
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VGB
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Re: Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

#33

Post by VGB »

Learning by mirroring is not new but understanding why it works has been the subject of scientific debate:

https://solportal.ibe-unesco.org/articl ... r-neurons/

https://www.apa.org/monitor/oct05/mirror

https://positivepsychology.com/mirror-neurons/

You can still apply constraints to the task that you mirror, as ever it’s down to your objectives.

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Vince
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Re: Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

#34

Post by Paul Arden »

I’ll check later tomorrow. 10.8km swim at dawn. Hopefully I survive. And make it of course. Cheers Vince.

Paul
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Re: Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

#35

Post by Paul Arden »

Swam 6km. It’s a start.
You can still apply constraints to the task that you mirror, as ever it’s down to your objectives.
Can you give some examples of this please?

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Paul
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Re: Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

#36

Post by VGB »

If I’m preparing someone to cast on a small stream, I may tell them to cast under the tip with the tip never rising above waist height. Alternatively, we could be roll casting, sat on a park bench or kneeling.

Both of these could be considered task or environmental constraints depending on the context. I could set the task such that they are trying to solve a problem, or develop a particular skill. Using long strokes with short lines is an alien concept to many anglers that have been conditioned to matching stroke length to line length.

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Re: Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

#37

Post by Paul Arden »

Thanks. Yes I agree that’s a constraint. But where is the mirroring?
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Re: Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

#38

Post by VGB »

That is down to me. For the low casting task, I will be directly opposite it them, also performing the same task, my left hand to their right hand casting. I will synchronise with their movements and try to lead them. I will emphasise the stroke length, the flexibility of my body movement, maybe the tip path to increase that range using single words not phrases - long, straight and smooth get used a lot at this point.

It can be a bit hypnotic when you do synch, I guess the psychologists have picked up on that.

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Re: Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

#39

Post by Paul Arden »

Surely that then negates the constraints, because instead of them working it out they are mirroring you? A bit like asking a question and then immediately giving them the answer.

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Re: Imprinting positions.. and other topics.

#40

Post by VGB »

An unconstrained task would be to hit the target with a fly. Posing this problem has a huge range of potential solutions, they could throw the rod at it if they want. With an externally cued outcome such as hitting the target whilst keeping the loop under the tip, I will demonstrate the task so that they know that it is achievable but I am not directing a solution, that is their problem to solve.

I only use mirroring if they are struggling, I don’t use it from the get go. If I make a long exaggerated movement with the tip path, they still have to arrange their sequencing and rate of motion to solve the problem.

If I tell someone to draw the longest possible line on the wall at waist height, they will try a lot of different movements to achieve that, they will know if they have achieved the goal but I may suggest a better way or a range of potential solutions. If they have to then fish in the same situation with their casting side foot on a wobbly rock, they will have to solve the potential instability. The teaching objective is student adaptability, they need to be a Swiss Army knife not a Samurai sword.

The example I gave of a tip path that is too short is an individual constraint that I want to remove in most cases. Students that have been taught the closed stance, elbow up and down movement, they translate that to the new task and often tail every stroke because they believe that there’s an optimum casting technique. I may lead them to an answer by tightening the constraints but the self discovered solution is more likely to stick.

The downside is if your student then out fishes you, that happened to me last week :D

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Vince
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