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Open and Closed Skills
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Re: Open and Closed Skills
I think it’s not just about whether or not the task is entertaining, it’s also about making it practical.
The overpowered curve cast example I gave I think explains it very well. It’s easier to learn to curve at a short distance. You want to be consistent with the placing of the apex and I teach initially to try to hook 90 degrees.
So we put a target a 20’. Very easy to learn at 20’. And can practise this so it can happen on demand. But the obstruction isn’t always at 20’. So we step back and repeat. Make a number of casts, step back and repeat and so on. At some point the student loses the ability to curve; it’s a very difficult cast at distance.
But the more they go through this process the further they can ultimately hook. So that’s blocked to serial training.
However in the fishy world it has to happen at random distances, and usually first time. So that needs to be trained too.
And then of course you can train backhand overpowered, as well as underpowered curves, both fore and backhand. And then you can play with angles, 90, 60, 30, straight, -30, -60, -90. You can play with slack line too: slack at the apex vs slack at the fly end. You can take it as far as you want; train them all off jump rolls for example. But it all starts with a curve at 20’.
Cheers, Paul
The overpowered curve cast example I gave I think explains it very well. It’s easier to learn to curve at a short distance. You want to be consistent with the placing of the apex and I teach initially to try to hook 90 degrees.
So we put a target a 20’. Very easy to learn at 20’. And can practise this so it can happen on demand. But the obstruction isn’t always at 20’. So we step back and repeat. Make a number of casts, step back and repeat and so on. At some point the student loses the ability to curve; it’s a very difficult cast at distance.
But the more they go through this process the further they can ultimately hook. So that’s blocked to serial training.
However in the fishy world it has to happen at random distances, and usually first time. So that needs to be trained too.
And then of course you can train backhand overpowered, as well as underpowered curves, both fore and backhand. And then you can play with angles, 90, 60, 30, straight, -30, -60, -90. You can play with slack line too: slack at the apex vs slack at the fly end. You can take it as far as you want; train them all off jump rolls for example. But it all starts with a curve at 20’.
Cheers, Paul
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Re: Open and Closed Skills
Sadly, I think, all this stuff has everyone very confused.
My personal view is that, as a general rule, people learn new patterns of behaviour by repetitive performance linked to sensory cues. They do this with a sense, decide, do, verify, re-do, cycle. A perception action cycle. I believe this to be a reasonably well established principle.
If we accept that by a pattern we mean something like Schmidts Generalised Motor Programs (clearly we may not
), then we have two issues as instructors, one is to implant the generalised pattern, the other is to develop the generalised pattern such that it meets the objectives of the caster. It's really important that we recognise that this program is generalised, it's a model capable of variation both by expansion and/or specification. It is also a representation of complex movements, not simple discrete ones.
left to my own devices I will use a blocked/serial program for both challenges. The addition of variability to this in the form of difficulty or increased task complexity does not, in my view, make it random practice, it simply makes it variable. By definition, random implies low control if you're an instructor...anything could happen...whereas I can control when and by how much I introduce difficulty or complexity. If anyone is interested in the self efficacy stuff this means managing how much a caster is going to experience success or failure.
Obviously, however, I don't agree with Torsten that the value of variable practice is simply to decrease the boredom. If we are teaching by designing perception action cycles which drive the development of a GMP by stages or increments then we introduce new problems for a caster to solve and it is the independent solution of these progressively complex problems which promotes learning in the caster. My entire lesson looks like this, how it is timed depends on the casters capabilities and in lesson success/fail rate. It would be very common for me to ask a complete beginner caster to contrast a thin loop with a fat loop in the same false casting cycle. This is not to train the ability to produce thin loops or fat loops which could easily be acomplished by repetive blocked practice, it is to train the transition, the capacity to vary at will.
I'm not sure whether I care that much if the explanation for learning in the caster is contextual Interference or not because I don't think I'm ever in a situation where truly randomised practice is going to be useful in a lesson when I'm usually focussed on not cocking up structure and timing.
My personal view is that, as a general rule, people learn new patterns of behaviour by repetitive performance linked to sensory cues. They do this with a sense, decide, do, verify, re-do, cycle. A perception action cycle. I believe this to be a reasonably well established principle.
If we accept that by a pattern we mean something like Schmidts Generalised Motor Programs (clearly we may not

left to my own devices I will use a blocked/serial program for both challenges. The addition of variability to this in the form of difficulty or increased task complexity does not, in my view, make it random practice, it simply makes it variable. By definition, random implies low control if you're an instructor...anything could happen...whereas I can control when and by how much I introduce difficulty or complexity. If anyone is interested in the self efficacy stuff this means managing how much a caster is going to experience success or failure.
Obviously, however, I don't agree with Torsten that the value of variable practice is simply to decrease the boredom. If we are teaching by designing perception action cycles which drive the development of a GMP by stages or increments then we introduce new problems for a caster to solve and it is the independent solution of these progressively complex problems which promotes learning in the caster. My entire lesson looks like this, how it is timed depends on the casters capabilities and in lesson success/fail rate. It would be very common for me to ask a complete beginner caster to contrast a thin loop with a fat loop in the same false casting cycle. This is not to train the ability to produce thin loops or fat loops which could easily be acomplished by repetive blocked practice, it is to train the transition, the capacity to vary at will.
I'm not sure whether I care that much if the explanation for learning in the caster is contextual Interference or not because I don't think I'm ever in a situation where truly randomised practice is going to be useful in a lesson when I'm usually focussed on not cocking up structure and timing.
Casting Definitions
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
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Re: Open and Closed Skills
Just to clarify, if you are going to train for repetitive performance, a CI exam perhaps or competition accuracy, then you are looking for specificity in performance of a GMP, not expansion of it. In which case introducing variation into your practice program is going to seem a far less attractive option, particularly if you see it as only having entertainment value.
Casting Definitions
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
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Re: Open and Closed Skills
Ooh the dreaded CCI accuracy. Out of interest, Mark, do you think candidate training for his CCI would be better training to hit fixed targets in a straight line, short to long, 20, 30 and 45’, or would they be better training WC accuracy rules with 4 laps of 4 randomly placed targets 8-15m (or modified to 6-15m) for most of the time, with the occasional 20/30/45 task?
Cheers, Paul
Cheers, Paul
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Re: Open and Closed Skills
Don’t know…I’ve never taught CI accuracy using comp accuracy, I’ve always stuck to the task layout so they’re familiar. I don’t teach it up down the targets though.
Casting Definitions
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
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Re: Open and Closed Skills
Assuming they are at least 6 months out and not two weeks out (but preferably 1-2 years), then I would definitely recommend teaching the comp accuracy random layout and skills set. Overall overhead casting performance will be better and the three ducks in a line will not be seen as challenging in the slightest.
I don’t think that the CI task will make someone a very much better caster, but the WC game will do so and in the way that the FFI looks for when examining overhead casts. They’ll have to learn to perform the CI task without hauling but that won’t be difficult.
Cheers, Paul
I don’t think that the CI task will make someone a very much better caster, but the WC game will do so and in the way that the FFI looks for when examining overhead casts. They’ll have to learn to perform the CI task without hauling but that won’t be difficult.
Cheers, Paul
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Re: Open and Closed Skills
It’s not really what my post was about Paul. I’ve had four no haulers in the last two weeks, comp accuracy is an experience quite a long way in their future, if ever. My job as an instructor is to prep them for what they will encounter on the water next week.
The standard model of instruction is to imprint a specific ideal form of a GMP. This is commonly done by an explain, demo, copy, correct, process. The objective being the elimination of performance error by increasing the precision of the motion. In this model the course layout, whether it be three in a row or four in a comp layout and task requirement is invariant and as such theres no significant difference for me.
In a model centred on Parception Action Cycles I could use a single random dandelion to teach accuracy from all angles, distances, planes and trajectories, slack no slack. Fat loop thin loop. I don’t need, or want, a formal invariant layout. I want the opposite.
A process like this prepares a caster for an environment which is highly variant and gives them experience of change over range right from the very beginning. This means that in a sense, decide, do, check, redo, cycle they are equipped to make informed decisions and have range with which to execute them. In this model we teach using perception action cycles that incorporate variability because that’s what a caster will be doing in the wild.
That’s why I use variability anyway.
As Torsten has suggested, introducing variability could be simply to alleviate boredom in a copy, correct, repeat, copy, correct style lesson, in which case an instructor can squirt a bit in there when the caster has lost the will to live, like a caffeine shot. Or you could just shout to see if they wake up.
The standard model of instruction is to imprint a specific ideal form of a GMP. This is commonly done by an explain, demo, copy, correct, process. The objective being the elimination of performance error by increasing the precision of the motion. In this model the course layout, whether it be three in a row or four in a comp layout and task requirement is invariant and as such theres no significant difference for me.
In a model centred on Parception Action Cycles I could use a single random dandelion to teach accuracy from all angles, distances, planes and trajectories, slack no slack. Fat loop thin loop. I don’t need, or want, a formal invariant layout. I want the opposite.
A process like this prepares a caster for an environment which is highly variant and gives them experience of change over range right from the very beginning. This means that in a sense, decide, do, check, redo, cycle they are equipped to make informed decisions and have range with which to execute them. In this model we teach using perception action cycles that incorporate variability because that’s what a caster will be doing in the wild.
That’s why I use variability anyway.
As Torsten has suggested, introducing variability could be simply to alleviate boredom in a copy, correct, repeat, copy, correct style lesson, in which case an instructor can squirt a bit in there when the caster has lost the will to live, like a caffeine shot. Or you could just shout to see if they wake up.
Casting Definitions
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
- Paul Arden
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Re: Open and Closed Skills
Has booking multiple lessons changed your lesson’s content and objectives?My job as an instructor is to prep them for what they will encounter on the water next week.
The reason I ask is because next week is largely immaterial to me. They could very well go backwards temporarily as a lesson. That’s very well documented and to be expected.
Cheers, Paul
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Re: Open and Closed Skills
Not sure about the content itself but it's definitely changed how I time the introduction of it. It's miles easier to assess progress and that determines when I'm going to add difficulty or reinforce.
Casting Definitions
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
- Paul Arden
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Re: Open and Closed Skills
Well I’m sure there is more content as well! I look 8-12 months away. If someone is training something for a specific trip I start 4-6 weeks out. If someone has to do something by next week then I doubt the change will hold and they’ll revert back to their usual autonomic movement.
It’s totally transformed how I teach.
I think we both use a combination of repetition and variety. What is a drill? A drill is a form of repetition. Sure we can then improve it be adding variety to it. One of the ways we learn movement is by trying to repeat and/or hone the movement. Bernstein’s blacksmith was trying to hammer a target. He wasn’t learning by hammering all around him.
I agree that you can use dandelions as targets. But then it’s harder to measure. The hoop is just there so that we can measure improvements without having to go up to the dandelion with a tape measure after every cast. And I think we do want a method of measuring improvements that isn’t just the coach saying “that looks better”. With a hoop it’s either in or out.
Hoops are interesting because once the cast is in, then a good caster will almost never miss the target. If he/she does then it usually indicates a backcast inconsistency. Whatever the cause of the inconsistency, we can go looking for it.
Cheers, Paul
It’s totally transformed how I teach.
I think we both use a combination of repetition and variety. What is a drill? A drill is a form of repetition. Sure we can then improve it be adding variety to it. One of the ways we learn movement is by trying to repeat and/or hone the movement. Bernstein’s blacksmith was trying to hammer a target. He wasn’t learning by hammering all around him.
I agree that you can use dandelions as targets. But then it’s harder to measure. The hoop is just there so that we can measure improvements without having to go up to the dandelion with a tape measure after every cast. And I think we do want a method of measuring improvements that isn’t just the coach saying “that looks better”. With a hoop it’s either in or out.
Hoops are interesting because once the cast is in, then a good caster will almost never miss the target. If he/she does then it usually indicates a backcast inconsistency. Whatever the cause of the inconsistency, we can go looking for it.
Cheers, Paul