backcast -170 and general drivel.

[James Austin]

Hey,

Practising this today. it all hit home..as in any athletic endeavour baseball to powerlifting to old school bodybuilding. the body is not a collection of parts - it all works in sync. arms go where torso goes torso goes where hips go.. shift the weight back twist the torso lead with the elbow flail the wrist . it just works.. got a few right.. enough to be stoked watching the line fly effortlessly when it does.. anyways wanted to share.. Thanks for your videos Paul. Im indebted.

Regards,

James

[James Austin]

flail the forearm I ment.

[John Waters]

An excellent description of the movement patterning of fly line throwing, or as some refer to it as fly casting, James.

The only change I would make is the leading with the elbow.

John

[Paul Arden]

That’s great James!

I understand what John says, and yes it’s weight shift first, after sighting. But you are also correct, coming through with the elbow is an excellent cue. We just change cues between casts. Sighting first, weight shift… the elbow to target is an excellent one!

Ultimately, as some of my recent discussions have been about, it’s the overall objective and principally the targets that matter. As you write!! Getting trapped in the small (internal) details is often a problem. That’s why we have drills of course



Talking of which, I have a really good drill that I’m a long way away from filming. That is windscreen washer drill. Start off casting with a straight arm and then gradually straighten the tip path. It’s another exercise for exactly what you are playing with. This is a key 170 drill for me. See if you can work it out from that lame description. Otherwise I’ll post a video!

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Hi James,

I agree with Paul about his use of targets. Targets on both the forward and back casts are important for tracking but they are also very important from a biomechanics viewpoint because looking at them aids the stretch and release aspect of distance casting.

John

[James Austin]

Hi John and Paul,

Thanks for replying appreciate it! John Thank you, You don't agree with leading with the elbow?. is that in OSD casting style as apposed to the 170. I know I read you don't throw the 170 as your distance cast. I've watched your vid on YouTube many times!

Thanks Paul,

Ive been using only your drills on stopless backcast and forward cast over the last couple of weeks. no carrying line aside from the back cast backhand delivery practise to ingrain good movement patterns.

The reason I said leading with the elbow was coz im gathering that it helps delay the rotation on the backcast as the torso twists. Happens more naturally. I m gathering early rotation in the flop would be a no no anyway.. I can't write what I mean.

You and your bloody targets Paul.. haha (joking). I have been picking targets between two stopless casts laying on the ground. It makes it not easy but easier. I want to ingrain this as part of my training.. breaking this cast into parts makes it a lot more manageable I think.. im not even thinking about stringing the 2 together until it feels natural.. and it is feeling a lot better than 2 weeks ago.

Thing about that stopless backcast. its a mind thing after the flail the elbow and the rod leg heads to the ground then you watch the top leg and it pulls it all straight when get it right Jesus,, the line just goes. you just wouldn't think it would work. But geez god it goes when its all working.

Thanks again John and Paul.

James

[John Waters]

Hi James,

That video is an old one and reflects a primarily arm centric distance casting technique, and not a 170 style movement pattern. If it was today, I would advocate a different pattern based on throwing because that's what casting is, we throw the fly line. My view on the in-front-of-the-shoulder elbow movement is based on the biomechanics of throwing and the relative hand speed generated in fly casting versus other sports. We can learn a lot from other sports and the proof is the hand speed differential. If the rod hand has greater linear velocity, so will the rod tip, albeit given the lag that occurs because the rod is flexible. My view is very much an outlier when it comes to distance casting technique and has evolved from my comparative study of fly casting and throwing. As you will see in the video of me casting on Tim's Youtube channel I push the elbow forward on the forward and use an expression Wlodek Targosz who I think is the best fly distance caster I have ever seen, uses i.e. the elbow and wrist turnover at the end of the stroke is like putting a box of matches that I am holding in the palm of my hand onto a shelf above my head at arm's length in front on me. There has been comment here that I am saying "pushing" not "putting" but I can assure you I am saying "putting", my antipodean accent can be somewhat confusing. If you compare that video's elbow pattern and comments with any Youtube pitching coaching video and their coaching comments about pushing the elbow forward when pitching, you will see what I mean. Issues like tracking, rod action and line flexibility are unique to casting and important determinants of performance, but I don't subscribe to the view that because we are not releasing a ball or stick directly from the hand, casting is different from throwing.

My views probably fit very neatly with this thread's subject, or at least the last word in the title, but then again......

John

[James Austin]

Your a good man John. no not at all drivel...thank you for your detailed post.. way beyond me your understanding probably best describes it.. Im confused a bit because baseball pitches defiantly lead with their elbow to my limited knowledge. If you watch any great pitcher the elbow is in front of the shoulder until very late.. maybe im misreading you. im so tired and have had a few. I don't know,,,, I don't know enough about pitching honestly. I completely see how we throw line.. I didn't when I first started casting but I do realise pushing versus pulling. I do see the luxury of someone who is letting go of the ball /object ...but where we are attached to it and something before we release has ramifications down the line.. I know it does for throwers too ie spin swing pace /lack of. . but straight is straight and power is power. im not making much sense here.

I remember your quote about putting the matches on the shelf.. I thought your cast was great on the video. but thats a poor mans opinion..
Regards,

James

[Paul Arden]

I also have a “Cactus Man” Drill. I’ll see if I can find a way of posting them out of sequence

[James Austin]

Paul. Meant to say.. Yeah the windscreen wipers and slowly tighten it up.. You had that drill in your video with NickMoore on distance over 120? is that the same. The windscreen wiper goes rotation and slowly more translation delaying the rotation , is it safe to say the elbow flop on the 170 still has to follow the rules of gradual power application til late as possible in a straight a line as possible, I know the flop isn't a straight line but you know what I mean..behind the shoulder. The weight shift /torse shift makes the elbow flop happen at the right time I think . its just following on the body's momentum. .. I don't know..

Regards ,

James