Korich Podcast

[Stoatstail50]

Not wishing to go over old ground on "feel" really. The only point is that we absorb information from all the sensory sources available to us when we're learning to do something, including the sensory feedback from the rod.

Experts have learned where the most information rich sources are and have automated the processes that allow them to react quickly to variation in the sensory geography. Beginners, on the other hand, have no idea which sources are the most useful and don't know how to react to them either. Experts focus on far fewer things in the environment than beginners, that is they filter out low value sources and concentrate on the richest. Beginners are all over the shop.

Generally speaking then, the first job of an instructor is to choose which source of feedback is going to most assist a caster in achieving a task objective and to guide them towards effective interpretation of that source. In almost every applicable scenario for practice or use, the main source is going to be visual, what we can see. This, for me, means creating a task or sensory environment that connects an unambiguous, visually verifiable, outcome with movement controlled by the caster. This can be done with 2 weights or 8 weights, bendy or stiff and there's no need to refer at all to sensory feedback from the rod. This doesn't mean that the caster is not processing it in some way, I think that can be taken for granted.

[Stoatstail50]

I suspect a more practical mantra might be “Pay attention to the line and where you are sending it”

Yep

If we're working with beginners or relative novices it is not necessarily sound thinking to assume that what works for expert performance in competition is going to work if it is learning that's the objective. The temptation is to over assume and then we risk jumping necessary learning processes as a consequence.

[NM]

A very interesting podcast, indeed. Chris knows his stuff. His comments regarding rod length, and rod flex and feel for teaching beginners is consistent with my experience. A shorter, inexpensive full flex and low modulus rod may be a better tool for introducing beginners to fly casting than more expensive fast action rods because they are slower and makes it easier for the beginner to feel what is going on as the rod bends and unbends in response to the casting motion.

Best,
Nils

Why do you think it makes it easier Nils ? Beginners have no idea what any rod line set up feels like so they've got nothing to judge it against. Everything is new for them and they quickly auto adjust to the system in their hands in my experience. They'll learn equally well with either providing it's properly cued.

Mark,
A student learning a movement, including fly casting, doesn’t have to know how that movement should feel like when done correctly in order to benefit from being able to feel what they are doing. In the case of a fly cast, that includes feeling the rod, rod tip, and the line. That is all. Whether you think it is beneficial, or not, to draw the student’s attention to the sensory feedback from the rod and line is a completely different issue. They will, as you said in another post, process that feedback in some way anyhow.

[Stoatstail50]

I more or less agree Nils but that begs the question of what they do need to know in order to learn movement...rather than what they don't.

[Paul Arden]

Still haven’t caught up. Looking forward to this. We have all done this test over the years right? Ie put different rods and lines, “matched” and “mismatched” in students’ hands to see what this think?

I remember back in the mid 90s, UK instructers were recommending overlining Sage rods by one line weight, because they were too stiff. This was the RPL. Has anyone cast an RPL recently?

Ok now these guys, who were amongst the best casters in the UK, had obviously dialled into softer rods. So that says nothing about how beginners find different rod stiffnesses.

I believe Chris thinks in terms of feel (I will listen tomorrow; crazy day today!). I don’t think of it necessarily as feel as much as timing. It’s easier to learn new actions when they last for longer durations. A soft rod requires a longer, slower stroke. A stiff rod requires a short, precise and quicker cast. This is an obvious example of Fitt’s Law of speed/accuracy tradeoff. Chris is using rods from those days. Now Chris also comes from those days too, as apparently do I

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

A soft rod requires a longer, slower stroke. A stiff rod requires a short, precise and quicker cast.

To do what ?

A beginner doesn't know anything about rod action or timing. If they're moving a relatively short length of line about, the small timing difference between one rod and another is of zero consequence to them. I'll happily teach beginners with the gear I fish with and they learn with whatever is put in their hands. I've often heard it said but I've never noticed any particular advantage or disadvantage in selecting one bendy stick or another from a learning perspective.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Mark,

To throw loops of course!

It’s strange that they don’t know, but find softer rods favourable, isn’t it? I find that very interesting.

If I had to pick a relative stiffness projection, it’s pretty clear that as fly casters become more skilled, and in particular learn to double haul, that they prefer stiffer rods. To a point anyway. And this is partly the problem that we ran into with marketing in 2003, namely with the TCR5. That’s not your typical small stream US 5WT! I hope that we are not part of this madness trend!


I suspect inadvertently we might have been, despite my review saying it was better for fishing a 6WT line.

https://www.sexyloops.com/tackle/sagetcr5.shtml

Sage were pushing stiffer rods earlier than this, particularly with SP+, so maybe that takes is off the hook. But it does seem to me that a whole lot of companies try to copy Sage, and followed the trend-setter.

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

It’s strange that they don’t know, but find softer rods favourable, isn’t it? I find that very interesting.

Well…arguably it’s only interesting if you want to sell rods and it’s not strange if they’re beginners because they haven’t picked up any rods at all yet.

How can they conceivably know which one is better for learning or not? They’re only going to “know” if that’s what they’re told. If you don’t tell them they won’t notice a thing and the lesson will go on without them worrying for one second that they’re using anything hard to learn with.

They’ll also only know if they prefer using one or another( not the same as learning) when they’ve tried more than one…then you can sell them the one they like. This form of differentiation from the competition is one of the ways sales are made.

This focus on kit, right from the beginning, implies that kit has a more significant influence on performance and outcomes than is actually merited. This is not to suggest that some rod/line set ups are more difficult to cast than others just that any outfit from the Goldilocks zone is usually perfectly fine for instructing and a beginner has no mechanism for telling one from another from a learning perspective.

[Paul Arden]

With group lessons it’s very easy at some point in the day to have a line up of different outfits to cast. (Haysie would do this regularly, and would always mix things up, say by putting a WF line on backwards!). You can ask them to note what they think and which they prefer.

If they have been taught well they should be able to make them all work, and even if they are beginners they will have preferences. It’s worth doing that test even if it’s just for their entertainment/interest/novelty.

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

Yes it’s easy…

If they have been taught well they should be able to make them all work,

Exactly, implying that they can learn equally well with all of them if they are taught well.

What they prefer to use is a completely different matter. We’re conditioned by exposure to constantly chew over the merits of one rod or another, one makers bendy 5# v another’s. Theres an endless conflation of preference and function which is as meaningless in the context of a beginner lesson as it is everywhere else.

If they’re taught well they’ll make a loop with any or all of them. The conditional there being the teaching, not the gear.