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- Paul Arden
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- Location: Belum Rainforest
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Pretty much as it says, if you are new to the Board please start a topic telling us about yourselves. Where you live, what you fish for, how long you've been fishing, anything you want really
Cheers, Paul
Cheers, Paul
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Hi there
New to the board and have enjoyed reading the posts. I have been flyfishing a bit during my professional carreer (surgeon) which I am winding down. I now live in Florida and I am trying to get a grip on the imaginary salt water flyfishing. I immediately realized that my casting needed some serious overhaul. Noodle arms and rods simply do not cut it. Set about studying and landed on this site and my casting has indeed improved. What is helping me I think is changing my grip to the one were the palm is forward facing. The speculations set of some recollection of anatomy facts crammed in during my younger days. Here is what I came up with.
The point about the thumb on top versus to the left of rod (forward palm) set me to thinking about the underarm muscles and the movement of the wrist. Thumb on top requires you to snap with a motion called ulnar deviation (from the radius to the ulna side). Two muscles will be involved, flex. carpi ulnaris and extensor carpi ulnaris. However the muscles that flex the wrist are six i.e. palmaris longus, flex carpi radials, flex carpi ulnaris, flexor digiti superficialis, flexor digiti profunda, flex pollicis longus. Flex carpi ulnaris seems to do both. So hands down - more muscle power is behind flexing the hand than ulnar deviate the wrist. So the argument can be backed by solid anatomical fact. Of course I did not remember all this (40 years since I crammed this in) and resorted to this website - so you can check this out.
http://www.cram.com/flashcards/hand-wri ... es-2790133
Still confused but on a higher level?
Muscles can not push they can only pull i.e. shorten and are pulled back to former length by the opposing muscle group before they can pull again. You can float that in the pullers pushers argument.
Well it is a bit nerdy but I have to post something! I will be lapping up the stuff you guys post and learning.
Thx
Jonas
New to the board and have enjoyed reading the posts. I have been flyfishing a bit during my professional carreer (surgeon) which I am winding down. I now live in Florida and I am trying to get a grip on the imaginary salt water flyfishing. I immediately realized that my casting needed some serious overhaul. Noodle arms and rods simply do not cut it. Set about studying and landed on this site and my casting has indeed improved. What is helping me I think is changing my grip to the one were the palm is forward facing. The speculations set of some recollection of anatomy facts crammed in during my younger days. Here is what I came up with.
The point about the thumb on top versus to the left of rod (forward palm) set me to thinking about the underarm muscles and the movement of the wrist. Thumb on top requires you to snap with a motion called ulnar deviation (from the radius to the ulna side). Two muscles will be involved, flex. carpi ulnaris and extensor carpi ulnaris. However the muscles that flex the wrist are six i.e. palmaris longus, flex carpi radials, flex carpi ulnaris, flexor digiti superficialis, flexor digiti profunda, flex pollicis longus. Flex carpi ulnaris seems to do both. So hands down - more muscle power is behind flexing the hand than ulnar deviate the wrist. So the argument can be backed by solid anatomical fact. Of course I did not remember all this (40 years since I crammed this in) and resorted to this website - so you can check this out.
http://www.cram.com/flashcards/hand-wri ... es-2790133
Still confused but on a higher level?
Muscles can not push they can only pull i.e. shorten and are pulled back to former length by the opposing muscle group before they can pull again. You can float that in the pullers pushers argument.
Well it is a bit nerdy but I have to post something! I will be lapping up the stuff you guys post and learning.
Thx
Jonas
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Great first post Jonas!
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Jonas,
I agree, great first post! Welcome to the board and I like nerdy.
Steve
I agree, great first post! Welcome to the board and I like nerdy.
Steve
Veni, Vidi, Pisci
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Hello Jonas, this is why this is such a great site. Always something new to learn. I have always used the thumb on top grip , which I think is probably best for lighter weight rods at least, where too much power is the enemy. All my fishing so far has been freshwater and rarely using anything heavier than a 7wt, so I have never considered changing my grip.Hopefully this is about to change . Saltwater here I come
Have recently got my hands on an 8wt and was thinking that a full day casting is going to hurt. Your post makes perfect sense. As soon as I read it I went straight to the tool box , just to check how I normally grab a hammer. Thumb to the side naturally. Hopefully this sets me on the right road with the heavyweights. Thanks for the great post.........................John
Have recently got my hands on an 8wt and was thinking that a full day casting is going to hurt. Your post makes perfect sense. As soon as I read it I went straight to the tool box , just to check how I normally grab a hammer. Thumb to the side naturally. Hopefully this sets me on the right road with the heavyweights. Thanks for the great post.........................John
- Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19761
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
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Hi Jonas, and welcome to the Board!!
I have a slightly different take on this, with lighter line outfits I use the palm forward grip however with the heavier lines I use the thumb on top. My thinking is the palm forward is very useful but the wrist not strong enough for heavy lines, and using the thumb on top prevents wrist motion because it has much less available movement.
I'm of the opinion that the thumb on top grip originated because of cane rods and our inability to stop them quickly.
Cheers Paul
I have a slightly different take on this, with lighter line outfits I use the palm forward grip however with the heavier lines I use the thumb on top. My thinking is the palm forward is very useful but the wrist not strong enough for heavy lines, and using the thumb on top prevents wrist motion because it has much less available movement.
I'm of the opinion that the thumb on top grip originated because of cane rods and our inability to stop them quickly.
Cheers Paul
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My issue with thumb-on-top is tracking. If you stand open stance and try and track your thumbnail along a straight line in a backcast you'll find that you have to twist it out of plane not far behind your shoulder (assuming your joints work in the same way as mine ). I see this a lot at the BFCC where people know they have to open-up but beyond a certain point their tracking goes AWOL. So for me it's fine for short and medium length casts, but not for distance.
- Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19761
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
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i agree with that James, but I would look at the extended rear hand position as a benefit to the backcast, half of the forward overall stroke is Slide to bring the hand back to the shoulder. With most line profiles in ten weights this extended backcast is unnecessary. So I switch to a Rajeff style.
Cheers Paul
Cheers Paul
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- Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:53 pm
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Hi again
I apologize for my late response but was traveling from Florida to Aland Islands to do some locum work.
Thx for your encouraging word James and Steve. I fear Steve you will beat me handily in the nerdy department after looking at some of your posts.
John I have transitioned to the salt and my best advice if you need one is to cast better if you are not a champion already.
Paul.
Assume thumb on top. Now look at the position of the hand - it seems to me that the radial movement of the wrist is naturally limited in this position. You cold be right that this position will stop heavy outfit to tip over backwards but I think it has to with the limited radial movement in the wrist itself. But it could easily be both.
In the anatomical position (Vitruvian man - palms forward and radius and ulna parallel) the degree of movement of the wrist is not that much - radial movement 20o and ulnar 35o . The flexion extension of the wrist is however 75-70o or 145o. Meaning that we have far greater range of motion in that position.
http://www.eatonhand.com/nor/nor002.htm
Jonas
I apologize for my late response but was traveling from Florida to Aland Islands to do some locum work.
Thx for your encouraging word James and Steve. I fear Steve you will beat me handily in the nerdy department after looking at some of your posts.
John I have transitioned to the salt and my best advice if you need one is to cast better if you are not a champion already.
Paul.
Assume thumb on top. Now look at the position of the hand - it seems to me that the radial movement of the wrist is naturally limited in this position. You cold be right that this position will stop heavy outfit to tip over backwards but I think it has to with the limited radial movement in the wrist itself. But it could easily be both.
In the anatomical position (Vitruvian man - palms forward and radius and ulna parallel) the degree of movement of the wrist is not that much - radial movement 20o and ulnar 35o . The flexion extension of the wrist is however 75-70o or 145o. Meaning that we have far greater range of motion in that position.
http://www.eatonhand.com/nor/nor002.htm
Jonas
- Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19761
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
- Contact:
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Hi Jonas,
Yes I agree that it's the limited motion that the thumb on top gives this particular benefit. With beginners we try very hard to limit wrist movement, with advanced students the switch to palm forward allows delayed rotation, late application of force and quicker rotation.
Have you met up with Gordy Hill? You share the same passion and career!
Cheers, Paul
Yes I agree that it's the limited motion that the thumb on top gives this particular benefit. With beginners we try very hard to limit wrist movement, with advanced students the switch to palm forward allows delayed rotation, late application of force and quicker rotation.
Have you met up with Gordy Hill? You share the same passion and career!
Cheers, Paul