Correcting tailing loops

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Correcting tailing loops

Post Number:#1  Postby Mangrove Cuckoo » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:31 pm

It is “tarpon tune-up time” again. And so, I have a string of private lessons lined up with repeat students that I see only once or twice a year – usually right before they go on their spring tarpon trip.

Commonly, they have not touched their rods for months, and quite possibly not since last spring. Also commonly, they have the same main issue: tailing loops.

All these folks enjoy the same lifestyle of having the absolute finest, or at least most expensive, latest and greatest equipment. Usually 12 wt rods, massive reels, and tropical saltwater lines. (And, they all think they have to cast around 75’ while most tarpon are closer, but that is another issue)

How would y’all go about taming their tailing loops?

Last year I tried videoing and was disappointed when it did not seem to be very effective. I could see their misapplication of power, but usually, they could not.
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Correcting tailing loops

Post Number:#2  Postby Lou Bruno » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:36 pm

Good question...my approach would be to identify the cause, Bruce Richards 6-step method, then focus on the fix.

Not capable of using certain equipment is a different issue, not saying the equipment your friends use could be. Thats where your personnel experience, and training helps to assist them in perhaps scaling down or use equipment they can handle.

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Correcting tailing loops

Post Number:#3  Postby Lasse Karlsson » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:54 pm

Longer smoother stroke.

Tailing loops are a acceleration problem.

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Correcting tailing loops

Post Number:#4  Postby Paul Arden » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:57 pm

Hi Gary,

I’d get them to throw big open round loops, paying particular attention with forming the forward loop by turning the thumb over. Then I’d get them to use translation with big open round loops - emphasing the translation and the roundedness of the loops. And then I’d get them to tighten up.

If that doesn’t work I’d then look at the transition between back and forward casts. Laying the line on the floor, dragging and turning the thumb over at the end of the stroke to throw a big rounded loop. I’d get them to repeat this so they can identify the transition as the problem.

It may not completely solve the problem but it’s a godd starting position. I’d also - probably - make heavy use of the “Triangle Method” as an alternative drill and accuracy targets, straightness and so on.

In dealing with many issues like this I often aim for a polar position and then find the middle ground. I often think it’s easier to build a new stroke than tweak an existing one. That’s what works for me anyway.

What do you try?

Cheers, Paul

Edit: I might also drop the line weight. Practising with a 12 in a lesson is hard work.
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Correcting tailing loops

Post Number:#5  Postby Bernd Ziesche » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:21 am

Hi Gary,
the one main cause for all kind of waves in the fly-leg (smaller and bigger ones) in my experience is a too uneven force application for the (main) rotational part of the fly cast. Other issues like for example not waiting for the line to unroll may help to pronounce such waves though.

In regard of casting Tarpon tackle many casters may use the thumb on top grip. That grip easily may support relatievly open loops for the back casts. If the caster stops the rod too low here, I would check, if this can be easily corrected while still using the thumb on top grip. If not, you may reccommend to try the v-grip (thump on one side and index finger on the other side). This grip offers a higher natural back stop (as would the index finger on top grip). Having some nice back loops are of course a must have to get a proper smooth presentation then.

I first of all like to have the student put his rod hand on mine during false casting. That way I can make him feel the difference between a too sudden burst of force application and a perfectly smooth one. This "casting together demo" mostly takes no longer than 1 or 2 minutes before the student understands the whole issue.

Casting smoother on his own afterwards I like to have my students talking while casting: "whuuuuump" (fc) and "whuuuuump" (bc). This should be spoken smoothly like the cast should be performed.
For demonstrating the too sudden burst of force application I like to talk: "whuuuuUUMP". Every human has learnt to keep his movements and his talking harmonic. This really helps students to get the smoothness right much faster.
Make sure to have your students train the smooth cast with just the line length they can handle! Training with any additional length and smoothness easily goes down the drain again.

In my teaching experience the too uneven force applic. is corrected within 2 to 10 minutes usually and stays forever unless the student did cast a lot with a too uneven froce application and then will not keep on training the new smooth casting for a while (again with no more line length he can handle).

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Correcting tailing loops

Post Number:#6  Postby Paul Arden » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:55 pm

Thanks Bernd, I learned something there.

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Correcting tailing loops

Post Number:#7  Postby Jason Borger » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:13 pm

Another "quick fix" approach: Layback/Micro-Layback. I've attached a more-or-less cut-n-paste from a recent text of mine:

Using Layback, I have seen casters go from frustrated to fruitful in only a few casts. For the discussion here, I’m going to look at a form of Layback that I refer to as Micro-Layback. All forms of Layback have the same general concept: the rod tip moves both back and down as the line loop unrolls behind the caster.

The key aspect of Layback comes in moving one’s rod hand up-and-back a few inches while at the same time tilting the wrist further back to allow the rod tip to lay back toward the horizontal. The speed of Micro-Layback should be much like its name: laid back, or eaaase back. Micro-Layback flows right from The Stop; there is no dead time between the two actions. Think of it like this:

stroKEeaaase

View the end of The Stop as providing a dynamic bridge between the two actions.

When initially practicing the Overhead Cast, I tell casters to think about laying the rod tip (not the rod hand) back a few inches. Usually like this: “Let the rod tip eaaase back one inch during the Pause.” If that doesn’t work, I’ll go to six inches or even a foot. Whatever number it takes to click is the right one. Adding mental pictures can also help. I like to have casters visualize allowing the loop to pull the rod tip back. Back is key.

If you’re moving the rod tip back (Layback) you can’t be moving the rod tip forward (creeping).

It’s possible to think that you’re laying the rod tip back when the rod tip isn’t moving at all. I have seen this plenty, and nearly everyone who experiences it is certain the rod tip is moving back. But there it sits, holding steady. That’s not actually a bad thing, though. If the rod tip just sits there until it’s time to make the forward cast, then that means the tip isn’t moving forward. I’d still call that a success!

Once Micro-Layback is made, and the loop is just about unrolled, it’s time to cast forward. One of the simplest ways to get it right is to us a verbal cue like “just Go,” or “just cast.” The idea is that the forward cast acceleration simply starts from the laid back position. The laid back position provides a more direct connection to the line down the length of the rod during initial casting movements. Starting the cast from that position also helps to eliminate the desire to start too slowly and wait too long to ramp up the cast’s speed. Starting all laid back may seem odd, but I would much rather that a caster have the chance for good, long acceleration and full Turnover than the opposite, even if it means that the forward line loop may at first be more open. The whole backcast/Micro-Layback/forward cast sequence can be written like this:

stroKEeaaasestroKE
Attachments
JBorger_Micro-Layback.png
Back cast with Micro-Layback (ML)
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Correcting tailing loops

Post Number:#8  Postby Bernd Ziesche » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:04 am

Hi Jason,
If I got you right, you are using the ML quick fix to help your student not to come forward too early (and waste too much arc for the next cast)? In your point of view is there a main reason why people creep? Regards Bernd
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Correcting tailing loops

Post Number:#9  Postby Jason Borger » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:55 pm

Bernd--Yeah, although I also see ML as an "acceleration expander" along with a way to reduce the effects of excessive early force application (that bit is especially useful when talking about Layback made for distance, where Layback is more extreme).

In a quick explanation of the latter two points: ML provides a way to potentially provide more "room" to get the cast moving and it results in the rod initially pulling the line at a more obtuse angle (especially in extreme Layback usage where the rod is pointing straight down the line).

As far as creep goes, I think there are probably a few different things going on ("think" being the operative word here, as I have never done a real survey). I think that response to physical arm position (higher and/or farther back), our "forward throwing/striking" mentality, and subconscious action anticipation ("gotta go go go!") may be in the mix to varying degrees.

For those reasons I like to teach the Pause as a conscious, dynamic action and not just a period of time within the casting cycle. And, if you have to deliberately do something during the Pause (ML), it forces the caster to become conscious of that time period.

I make no warranties nor guarantees, but that's what I've got for you.

Bernd Ziesche wrote:Hi Jason,
If I got you right, you are using the ML quick fix to help your student not to come forward too early (and waste too much arc for the next cast)? In your point of view is there a main reason why people creep? Regards Bernd
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Correcting tailing loops

Post Number:#10  Postby Bernd Ziesche » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:04 pm

Hi Jason,
thanks for your quick reply. Mostly when I read "tailing loop" in whatever headline, "CREEP" (and what authors thought it is) was listed as one of the possible causes for a tailing loop.

Here's what Graeme said in the other current thread about how to demonstrate tailing loops:

Graeme H wrote: the "general wisdom" (in the CCI exam) is that only three causes of tails are known:
* Creep,
* Insufficient casting arc and
* An "incorrect application of power", nearly always demonstrated as "hitting it too early".
Cheers,
Graeme


Then you as well listed creep to be a possible cause to be corrected in order to solve a student's tailing loops.
Bernd Ziesche wrote:If I got you right, you are using the ML quick fix to help your student not to come forward too early (and waste too much arc for the next cast)?

Jason Borger wrote:Bernd--Yeah, although I also see ML as an "acceleration expander" along with a way to reduce the effects of excessive early force application (that bit is especially useful when talking about Layback made for distance, where Layback is more extreme).


Bernd Ziesche wrote:In your point of view is there a main reason why people creep?


As you said:
Jason Borger wrote:As far as creep goes, I think there are probably a few different things going on ("think" being the operative word here, as I have never done a real survey). I think that response to physical arm position (higher and/or farther back), our "forward throwing/striking" mentality, and subconscious action anticipation ("gotta go go go!") may be in the mix to varying degrees.


I often was told, that the cause for creep was about anticipating the next cast. For a long time I have been testing this in my lessons. It didn't hold true for most of my students according to my own findings though.

I often found 2 typical issues:

1. Improper positioning of the rotation during the stroke and
2. Stopping the rod (rod straight position) too low both supporting a relatively open loop.
*

The (too) open loop often caused the fly (and often line end) to tick
a) directly or
b) when accelerating the next cast

Thus waiting for the line to unroll wasn't possible without running into a casting desaster. Without knowing any of the 2 causes, many casters unintentionally tried to compensate the open loop by moving the rod into the next rotation early (creeping if you like).

Helping those students to
1. properly position the rotation during their stroke and
2. shortening their arc by stopping the rod in a proper position
70-80% of the students stopped moving the rod into the direction of the next cast early by themselves.
Compensation was no longer needed and forcing my students to WATCH their back cast made it even better.

Sometimes though I additionally did have to point out the early rod rotation in the direction of the next cast pre solving the hole issue.
In summary here where I teach creep mostly was about compensationg other faults, which have been made before the creeping movement itself.

Since I prefer starting to solve the first (basement fault) always first, I don't really like to understand creep being a fault for tailing loops per se.

What really got me thinking here is, that you taught to lower the rod while I was teaching to higher the rod often. :p Depending on what exactly the student does both can work well of course.
Regards
Bernd

* 3. Moving the rod hand along a too convex path can be quite another (third) typical reason causing too open loops though.
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