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Functional roll casts

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Lasse Karlsson
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Functional roll casts

#21

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Tue May 14, 2019 6:03 pm

Think you need the Toft Block :p



Right at the end

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Morsie
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Functional roll casts

#22

Post by Morsie » Wed May 15, 2019 12:03 pm

I treat the lift as the first part of the forward cast - both hands straight up together, no change of angle - then pull down through the rotation. This serves to increase the Dloop and move point P forwards. And yep the Toft block is a wickedly fine bit of knowledge.

jarmo
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Functional roll casts

#23

Post by jarmo » Wed May 15, 2019 2:19 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:Think you need the Toft Block :p
Thanks! Just played with this and it helps but doesn’t solve it entirely. I haven’t videoed these casts, but it feels like I get zero preload / tension before I get to the “power stroke” part. The entire performance is so limp. It feels like the entire preload move is wasted on removing slack or something.
Morsie wrote:I treat the lift as the first part of the forward cast - both hands straight up together, no change of angle - then pull down through the rotation. This serves to increase the Dloop and move point P forwards.
My guess is that this also restores some tension. Do you initially allow point P to slide behind you? Good tips, I will give these a try. Much appreciated.

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Will
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Functional roll casts

#24

Post by Will » Wed May 15, 2019 4:03 pm

Hey Jarmo

I really struggled with this!

Next time you are out, try to notice how far back the rod is going on the set up, and be really picky about it.

IMHO it needs to be back at least 45 degrees, and this is further back than you think it is! If it’s only 30 deg you aren’t getting a good d-loop no matter where point p is (in no/slow current I’d be looking for pt P to be almost next to me).

For me it helps to make sure my bottom hand is well away from my body (you can aim for a straight arm!), and roughly in line with the centre of my chest. Notice how far out Andy Toft’s bottom hand is at the start. If your hand stays close to your body, you’re unlikely to get the rod back far enough (no D-Loop), and you’ll end up with a top-handed stroke with either an open loop or a loop crashing into the water.

Hope that helps.

Will
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Barrio Pro-team
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"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
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jarmo
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Functional roll casts

#25

Post by jarmo » Wed May 15, 2019 5:15 pm

Will wrote:I really struggled with this!
I am glad to hear this - even more so since your expression suggests that you eventually cracked it.

It is exactly this type of problem solving that keeps me interested in casting.
Next time you are out, try to notice how far back the rod is going on the set up, and be really picky about it.

IMHO it needs to be back at least 45 degrees, and this is further back than you think it is! If it’s only 30 deg you aren’t getting a good d-loop no matter where point p is (in no/slow current I’d be looking for pt P to be almost next to me).

For me it helps to make sure my bottom hand is well away from my body (you can aim for a straight arm!), and roughly in line with the centre of my chest. Notice how far out Andy Toft’s bottom hand is at the start.
So very true. Furthermore, his hands (and yours, like you wrote) are far in front, which I suppose would tend to keep point P in front. So, from my point of view he has sacrificed translation (using hands) to gain a larger amount of rotation. Earlier I was aiming for a lot of translation, which I think is a magical move in many cases, but may be my doom here.

So we seem to have the following chips: rotation, translation (body, hands) and lift. I will experiment with these asap and let you know.

Much obliged.

jarmo
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Functional roll casts

#26

Post by jarmo » Fri May 17, 2019 12:27 pm

Will wrote:Next time you are out, try to notice how far back the rod is going on the set up, and be really picky about it. IMHO it needs to be back at least 45 degrees, and this is further back than you think it is! If it’s only 30 deg you aren’t getting a good d-loop no matter where point p is (in no/slow current I’d be looking for pt P to be almost next to me).
I tested this yesterday and yes, increasing the angle makes a big difference. Even if I lose some translation.

Which makes sense. If the angle is 45 degrees, the rod and the horizontal distance between the tip and the butt are in the same ratio as the diagonal and side of a square, that is, square root of 2. So the horizontal distance between tip and butt is approximately 11’. That’s a lot of room for a forward stroke (with a risk of a convex tip path).

But that 11’ brings with it a problem with point P. If there is no current, and the roll cast has to be truly static, there is no way I can keep point P from going far behind me.

On the other hand, hypothetically speaking, if this would be related to an exam, maybe they would only state that it has to be perfectly static. Maybe they would not mention anything - and, more importantly, do not care - about the location of point P and that part is just in my head. I can only hope.

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Lasse Karlsson
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Functional roll casts

#27

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri May 17, 2019 4:42 pm

What kind of exam?

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Lasse
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Functional roll casts

#28

Post by jarmo » Sat May 18, 2019 1:37 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:What kind of exam?
THCI.

(It specifies roll casts @70', but to be on the safe side I add 10' to all tasks.)

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Lasse Karlsson
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Functional roll casts

#29

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat May 18, 2019 8:16 pm

FFI, then it's in your head :)

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Functional roll casts

#30

Post by jarmo » Sun May 19, 2019 11:18 am

Lasse Karlsson wrote:FFI, then it's in your head :)
I am ecstatic to hear this was a mental issue only.

This exchange of messages might have saved me tens of hours of time. That is no exaggeration, since for the CI I misinterpreted (on my own) the criteria for static roll casting on grass, and spent literally tens of hours exploring and tuning. Only one day before my test did I learn what the actual expectations were.

Thread hijack is over.

Regarding the original topic, I use static rolls regularly. The most common use is in places where the starting position or the only fishing position is between trees: no space behind, above or on either side. The best casting option may be a "crude spey"; flop the line out and then very carefully roll cast in an extremely limited space. Roll cast pickups are common in dry fly fishing. I have also learned to unsnag the fly in the way described on the first page of this thread.

In teaching, I have sometimes found roll casting a most useful tool to illustrate preload. A bit of tension and bend before rotation makes wonders in turning that lame roll into a zippy cast. I actually find it quite remarkable.

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