PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!

overloading

Moderator: Paul Arden

User avatar
Merlin
Posts: 1313
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:12 pm
Location: France

Re: overloading

#71

Post by Merlin » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:35 am

From Paul
I think the only way to determine frequency is with a frequency test. Ie locking the rod butt horizontal, pulling the tip down and measuring how many times it vibrates per second
I sent you the methodology, Paul :sorcerer:
Magnus is correct; the 10 won’t necessarily have a higher frequency than the 6. It certainly “feels” faster with a 5 line but I’m not sure what that says.

On the paper, and for a given family of rods, a 10 has a slightly higher loaded frequency (same carry of course), but this is small (a few %). The 10 being heavier it also has a slightly larger inertial effect on line speed.
and my arc is less with the HT10.
This is interesting because it shows that you cannot use the full potential of a higher torque. You certainly use a higher one with the 10, but not to the point where you can keep the same arc. It is then very difficult to predict if you get a higher speed with the 10, and by how much. For sure there is an effect of the line flight on the distance you can achieve (loop size, loop morphing), but without any measurable proof, we can only speculate.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 12134
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: overloading

#72

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:34 am

I found the loop morph video interesting. The way I see it is the loop has to start wide because it’s going to morph tight. If the loop starts too tight it morphs into a collision. Even at 8ft wide by the time the loop has almost unrolled it is difficult to tell the two legs apart.

Normally with the HT6 I would throw the tip down there or even slightly lower (I used to practise by throwing the tip into the ground, and then shorten the arc slightly). With the 10 however I’m stopping earlier, max counterflex is less than I expected to see (although it’s difficult to see) and yet the loop still opens to 8ft shortly after.

When I can I’ll repeat the casts with both rods so we can see the differences. I can’t think of anywhere to do this at the moment but I’ll keep my eye out for a suitable place. I’ll also need someone to film which I might not have until Graeme arrives!

I can’t remember if the input feels higher, less or the same between rods. I tend not to throw the 6 for all-out distance any more. When I do it feels weird to have so much bending!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

Michael Rebholz
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:24 am

Re: overloading

#73

Post by Michael Rebholz » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 pm

hi all,

sry for not being at this here for a while and i read a lot of replies here and want to say thank you all

so overloading doesnt lead to breakage (in most cases)

in my experience nearly all students (including myself) are better off overlining most of the times (sometimes a lot) and that is to slow down, yourself as well as the rod.

I think slowing down is one of the biggest challenges to teach and learn in flycasting and overlining helps a lot of people as they have to slow down in order not to (normally) throw tailing loops all the time....so at the beginning they might call it overloaded but what they really cant do is match the stroke (speed and length) to the setup. With overlining its far easier to devellop a feel for the rod loading (at all). I m a big fan off that as it also slows the rod down. Slower means for me more control. Distance casting aside - talking fishing here.

in distance casting some might like to underline - i personally like a heavy feel and would probably go for a matching line.

So from what i see i d say 80% of the casters (especially in speycasting too) would be better off with heavier lines, saying that the weight distribution along a certain length seems to play a big role. I throw all sorts of lines on all different rods and the more i do this the more i realise that the line rating on a rod is generally not usefull at all. I find it ffar better to ignore that at all and try to find your own setup - free from any recommendations -
you might say: only experienced casters can do that. I disagree. Especially beginners can devellop their casting far quicker with overlining (and "overloading")

That means if people say "this rod is overloaded" it just means they cant cast. Is that what your saying? i would agree with that one too. Though there are limits within a certain comfort zone and a 3wt with a 12line on it sure wouldnt float my boat - though i have fished 8 wt lines on 3 wt rods - it works, and a commando head for example does exactly the same all the time, it s too heavy but short enough.

for me that also means that line ratings in general are not really helpful on rods at all - they re really very limited in some cases and i see quite a few anglers struggling because of that. Thats interesting.

Thanks for all your replies. A great resource here to discuss and to devellop a better understanding of flycasting and how to teach it.

cheers and tight lines

Michael

User avatar
Graeme H
Posts: 1614
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:54 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: overloading

#74

Post by Graeme H » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:45 pm

Hi Michael,

I think you may be missing the sentiments underlying most of the answers in this thread. I would not personally recommend anybody routinely overline their rod, especially when learning to cast. Doing so would become a crutch supporting poor technique and hinder the development of the student/fisherman.

I think it's far better for the caster to develop the feel for the subtle tactile feedback from the rod at all distances with a line that's correctly rated. Perhaps the most common problem I see is the caster using too much power throughout the cast and overlining tends to encourage that fault. The caster wants to feel a pronounced bend in the rod, mistaking that for the appropriate response to their applied force at the grip. It's sort of like putting chilli in every meal: you'll lose the appreciation for the finesse of a skilled chef. It's an easy one to fix, but the solution doesn't work as well if the rod is always "loading", regardless of distance.

A really well designed rod bends appropriately at short and long distances with the rated line on it. It's certainly true that some rod makers produce rods that don't bend properly at shorter distances, and in those cases, it makes a lot of sense to ignore the label and overline it. Paul will say "you've bought the wrong rod" and he's probably correct. But making a sweeping generalisation about overlining all rods is not the common wisdom amongst the instructors and experienced casters I know.

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 12134
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: overloading

#75

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:26 am

If you are having to overline then you have bought the wrong rod - absolutely!! When we go fishing the most important thing, after the fly, is the weight of the line. When we fish tiny dries we need a 4WT line or less. If we are fishing leaded flies a six weight. And so on...

Buy the line first, and then if you find the rod too stiff don’t buy that one, but a softer rod. They still exist. If you can’t find one then buy a rod with a lower number.

Then you are under-rodding :D

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 12134
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: overloading

#76

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:42 am

It's sort of like putting chilli in every meal
Nothing wrong with that. That's called living in Malaysia. :cool:

There is a problem nowadays, many rods are stiffer and stiffer. They have in fact been marketed this way - fast action for better casters - and so they must be the best! The problem is that some of the rods are becoming too stiff for practical fishing IMO. For short casts sometimes there is no feel whatsoever. Years ago I asked Jerry what lines he used for testing his rods, the main one (then) being a GPX. Now a GPX is already heavy. And because lines are getting heavier to try to cope with this, if these lines are then used to design the next batch of rods, then they will in turn get stiffer again. And before long 4WTs will weigh the same as 8WTs and then how are you going to fish .10 tippets with size 20 dry flies?

Be that as it may, overlining is not the correct way to go. The line is more important than the rod and should always come first. The unfortunate thing is that most anglers buy the rod first and then ask what line to buy.

It should be pointed out that a rod will cope with lines of more than one weight class and the number on the blank is the suggested optimal. It's not very long ago that they had a range of numbers written on the blank. Winston, T&T and others manufacture some nice slow rods in the high end. In the budget end Shakespeare actually have (or had) some very nice fishing rods with plenty of feel.

I personally have a problem with lines being overweight. The fly rods we manufacture at Sexyloops are designed to cast true to AFFTA line weight (for fishing). Finding a line weight that is true to AFFTA with many companies is becoming very hard indeed. RIO don't make them! The Gold is close. The Grand is one AFFTA heavier. So for the HT6 I recommend a Grand 5WT! Their Bonefish lines are all one AFFTA heavier. Now this is nuts!!!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

Michael Rebholz
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:24 am

Re: overloading

#77

Post by Michael Rebholz » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:06 am

Hi
Underodding :D I like that one.

Post Reply

Return to “Flycasting”