Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

[Paul Arden]

I also tell them there is a bell behind them that they have to ring with the backcast. The closer the fish, the higher the bell. I even make the noise. But there is no bell. For me it’s the same thing.

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Merlin,

Thanks for that description in terms I think I can understand!

I am actually surprised that the rod unloading adds even that much to the cast. I always assumed the much larger input was due to that long lever directly adding line speed.

Of course, I now have more questions...

First, I read mCL not MCF or am I more lost than I think I am?

But, otherwise if rod mass plays an important role in the transfer of inertial energy, does that mean a heavier rod will add more distance than a lighter one. Or if it isn't the rods total mass, would a rod with a larger swing weight transfer more?

Also, if the SDM is related to line mass, is that because more line mass loads the rod deeper into the butt section?

Again, thanks!

[Lasse Karlsson]

I also tell them there is a bell behind them that they have to ring with the backcast. The closer the fish, the higher the bell. I even make the noise. But there is no bell. For me it’s the same thing.

Cheers, Paul

Can I have some of what you're on please

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

Hi Gary,

MCL Minimum Chord Length, the stage during the casting stroke when the tip is closest to the rod butt. I think a haul should ideally start when the rod butt passes the perpendicular or later. Maybe it can happen closer to MCL. However I recall an analysis of a video of one of my hauls which if I correctly remember had the acceleration peaking at MCL. I thought it should happen later and maybe it’s something I can improve.

When I think about the haul I really think about the explosive part, which muddies the waters.

MCF Maximum Counterflex which is of course the rebending rod at its maximum position after the stop.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

If the backcast is low on a Snakehead shot I can often be heard saying “ting-a-ling” or doing Quasimodo impressions. It brightens up my day, Lasse.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Paul

Would it not be a bit easier to avoid confusion if the "M" in minimum chord length was small... like mCL.

While the "M" in Maximum Counter Flex stays capitalized like MCF?

It is easy to get them confused!

[Paul Arden]

I can certainly do that, Gary!

[Graeme H]

Paul

Would it not be a bit easier to avoid confusion if the "M" in minimum chord length was small... like mCL.

While the "M" in Maximum Counter Flex stays capitalized like MCF?

It is easy to get them confused!

I think it's implied in the geometry:

• The maximum chord length is when the rod is straight, so MCL must be minimum CL
• The minimum counter flex is also when the rod is straight, so MCF must be maximum CF.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Merlin]

Sorry for the confusion Gary, I meant mCL (minimum chord length) and not MCF = maximum counterflex (aging is no good).

There are many possibilities in terms of "stopping" the rod, but some are more recommandable than others for specific cases (e.g. leader casting or distance casting). The biomechanical aspect behind (some symmetry between acceleration and deceleration of joints) is part of the difficulty to characterize a "stopping style". I regret we never had Berlin's view on that point.

But, otherwise if rod mass plays an important role in the transfer of inertial energy, does that mean a heavier rod will add more distance than a lighter one. Or if it isn't the rods total mass, would a rod with a larger swing weight transfer more?

There are pro and cons about rod mass: more inertial effect on one hand and more swing weight (SW) on the other hand. SW costs energy to cast and tends to reduce your maximum rotation speed. Ideally, if you aim at maximum inertial effect without impacting SW (the mass characteristic for inertial effect is part of its SW, something like 1/3), there is little room for improvement, the window is about 10% more for inertial effect itself. For a synthetic rod, that does not represent a large impact on tip speed.

Inertial effect is typical of cane rods, it is included in their particular "action". It is also part of the behavior of DH rods, like the "monster" rod used by John Waters (20' for competition).

Merlin

[jarmo]

So let me get this straight, you where puzzled about something and then applied it halfway, moved on too soon and ended up going back to where you normally have succes?

Seems obvious where the fault was

Yes, lack of skills (on my behalf), right?

I have great respect for the people and knowledge on this board, one of them obviously being you. And this is a place where I try to learn a lot and ask questions. In some ways, it is pretty lonely for an instructor where I live. When I read about the idea of teaching without stop, I wanted to learn it. And I failed, and went back to my old ways. But I still do not know why I failed. I only know that once I introduced the stop, the problem was fixed.

I want to understand, but I suspect some of my questions look like I might be looking for a confrontation. That is not the case. I may exaggerate, simplify, look for counterexamples, yes, that is the way I was educated. Still, the target is just to understand.

Like I said, I do not know what the difference is, but perhaps it is just in the terminology. You said you give the student a reference target where the tip goes. Would you still expect the stroke to end there, even though you are not calling it a stop?

We should stop trying to teach something every human being already know how to apply, but are being told wrong by instructors not knowing what they are doing. Paul likes the approach of teaching something for beginners and intermediates and then tell them it's wrong once they get good... I fail to see the logic there, but I am quite dense

So is your target to teach them 170/stopless, and you proceed into that direction from the very beginning?

A DT is just a long shooting head, why would I teach different?

Because, if I have understood correctly, with overhang it does not matter that much what the tip does once you have released the line. The "freight train" (head) will pull the light stuff behind into the right direction. But, again, this was just a guess I made.

Do you like the shock waves Andy produces with his stop and block pantomime, and why aren't they there when he makes a real cast?

Is it because some of the energy released goes into accelerating the line?