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Large SH rod videos?

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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Large SH rod videos?

#11

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:33 pm

Hi Gary,

Awesome post!

As John said, it's really the fly size :sorcerer:. I use a vertical stroke for normal trout fishing with dry flies etc, but for this stuff i would highly recommend opening up with the 170, fast haul just past the vertical, rod tip pointing horizontally backwards etc. This technique get's the fly well out the way of the rod, and when you get the head out (placing it a the top of the loop with running line from the top of the loop-down to the ground/water) they morph tight anyway. I'm with James (sorry Paul!) with the rod tip point, you don't want to risk smashing your heavy fly into it. It will break, and it'll be when you least expect it too. :oh:

Alternatively you could perform a Belgian cast, but this is limited in distance, so i do think the 170 stop less is the way to go in your case. The feeling for the Belgian is a bit like lobbing a brick on a rope. Horizontal inclining back cast, then pulling it in without stopping, and finishing off with a normal overhead forward cast. I'm sure you know all that anyway. :pirate:

All the best!
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

Bianchetti Ivan
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Re: Large SH rod videos?

#12

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:34 pm

I don't think it is very important the weight you carry in the launch, or the rod you use, to have a good launch, watching videos can not help much if you have no clinical eye, it can be very important to film yourself to be helped.

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Paul Arden
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Re: Large SH rod videos?

#13

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:33 pm

Interesting discussion. Personally I'm - *almost* always - vertical over the top with the heavy flies. If I think there is a danger of fly/rod collision then I'll place the forward cast down between casts - and I am often tip to water on delivery.

I used to be different, until I fished with Graeme Williams in NT... I just couldn't make the required mangrove slot casts with "Belgian Cast" and so asked Graeme to show me - transformed my life :p Prior to that I believed this whole rod tip/fly thing. That was about ten years ago - there has been a lot of fishing in that time and I can't ever remember a rod tip breakage from fly contact in 40 years let alone the last ten. I actually think it's just one of these myths :laugh: Actually I know it happens of course but I can guarantee that it hasn't happened to me in all the time I've been vertical. Maybe the people who don't cast very often? If the collision is forward cast get the tip down, if it's backcast lift the elbow.

Cheers, Paul :p
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Large SH rod videos?

#14

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:06 pm

Interresting, I agree with Paul here :D

Just not vertical over the tip, more like 5 degrees out and just besides, thats what he does too, if only he would check ;)

I use shootingheads for most of my big fly chucking, so rods Paul would write 8 on the side and of with a piece of a 11 weight line.....

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Lasse
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Re: Large SH rod videos?

#15

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:25 am

Sorry I didn't get the protractor out :p

It's not impossible to hit the rod on the backcast/pickup, but you have to be doing something pretty wrong to do this. And if your forward cast is stopless/tip down then a collision is impossible. Where you might get a problem is going from front to back and then up again - and so if I have something really uncomfortable I'll use "water hauls" for both stability and ease of throwing a higher backcast. Gary was talking about flies that were in balance and just a heavy outfit with repeated casting. For me that means that I reduce movement so that it's less tiring.

If the fly is really heavy and out of proportion then I will swing it back around the side. For example, there are times when I've fished four enormous lead shots to get into deep pockets in NZ. I don't know how heavy but I do know it was too dangerous to cast normally. So that became a cast just like casting a lead weight - swinging the lead around until it aligned to the front target and lobbing it forwards. Still "fly fishing" in my book - but we are not using loops of fly line to delivery the fly!

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Large SH rod videos?

#16

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:49 am

Since when was the loop the driving force in delivering a fly?

Sounds like whiplash.....
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Re: Large SH rod videos?

#17

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 am

By loop I mean the entire loop as opposed to the weight of the fly!
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Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Large SH rod videos?

#18

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:53 am

OK...

So, I've had the chance to do a few practice sessions since I first posted this question and I think I've got things kinda worked out. Mind you I have not been practicing with at 10wt! Just a 7, so the true test won't come until I get back out on the water.

It is kind of curious that there are apparently few good videos on casting heavier saltwater rods, isn't it? I mean, with all the UTube heroes making all kinds of crappy videos and nobody wants to show off on this? Maybe if I get real bored some day I'll get all the video stuff together and trudge off to a park to shoot some. But, with a field right behind my house it is quite a bit of bother. Unfortunately, my field has a crappy background for filming.

Anyway, my original intent was simply to maximize efficiency and minimize damage to my aging body. I have found that I have to tuck the butt on the backcast to keep my elbow tendons from complaining... with larger rods. I have also found that getting my shoulder in play on the forecast takes quite a bit of work off my arm and wrist.

That latter point was emphasized by Mac B at the last show I attended, but to be fair, G. Borger also suggested the same thing. I actually played with this elbow forward style earlier in the year with my largest rods during the winter tarpon season. To my surprise it actually worked. But, at that time my tennis elbow was not bothering me. To even consider casting those rods today, without tucking, actually makes me cringe. Thankfully, the local tarpon are usually smaller during the summer.

What I had to work out was how to re-position between the two strokes. Tucking puts my hand out to the side and my elbow lower or equal to my shoulder. To utilize the shoulder muscles on the forecast, my elbow has to be higher and in front. My thing was I did not see these two components being an "either-or" situation. Why can't I use both?

What I found was not anything surprising, I just had to re-position while the bc was unrolling. The weird feeling part was lifting up at the same time. What I really learned was that you do not want to move the rod tip too much when you are moving the elbow or you will smack yourself repeatedly with the fly! We won't discuss how many times that had to happen before I figured that out.

So, thank you Mac B and Gary B! And thanks to Paul too. Somewhere in the past I caught his suggestion to begin the bc by dragging the elbow back and up as if you were trying to bloody the nose of someone standing behind you (my interpretation, not his). That really seems to put the rod butt right on the forearm perfectly positioned to tuck the butt without even thinking about it.

And, thanks to everyone else for their comments, especially Graeme for his videos.
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

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Re: Large SH rod videos?

#19

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:59 am

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:06 pm
I use shootingheads for most of my big fly chucking, so rods Paul would write 8 on the side and of with a piece of a 11 weight line.....
Cheers
Lasse
So... what line would you use if Paul wrote 12 on the side???
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Large SH rod videos?

#20

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:44 pm

Mangrove Cuckoo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:59 am
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:06 pm
I use shootingheads for most of my big fly chucking, so rods Paul would write 8 on the side and of with a piece of a 11 weight line.....
Cheers
Lasse
So... what line would you use if Paul wrote 12 on the side???
What would I be fishing for?

Cheers
Lasse
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