Overhead Casting Issues

[Bendix]

Hello All

I’ve been experiencing a few issues, when overhead casting with sinking shooting heads on the double handed rods.

First, the rods I’m using are between 12 and 13 feet long, and rated for lines between 7 and 9 wt. I’m using two types of lines, one is a Scandi head that’s 10 meters long, weighing around 31 grams, in sink rate I/3/4 and a sink rate I/5/6. The other one is also a Scandi head of 10 meters, that weighs around 33 grams, but this one is a type with interchangeable tips, and a floating body. The tips I use, are 15 feet long, in sink rate 6 and 8. For shooting line, I use mono nylon in both 50 and 70 lbs. For leader/tippet, I use around 4-5 feet of nylon, and then the fly.

When I do normal Spey, Switch and Roll casts with these setups, everything is working just fine. The problems come, when I try and make overhead casts...

The overhead cast I do, is essentially a PUALD, where I shoot between 5 and 10 meters of line in the forward delivery. I usually have approx. 50 cm of overhang. I try to aim high in the back cast, by stopping the rod in the 1 o’clock position, so I can avoid hitting bushes and trees behind me.
But the problem I have, is that the heavy fast sinking lines seem to do a lot of “kicking around” in the back cast, with the result, that the fluff/fly comes flying past me around shoulder height, when I do the forward cast, which is of course rather dangerous...
This problem is less, when I add speed to the cast, but then the result is, that the fluff/fly seem to come smashing down in the grass/water, during the delivery, which will spook the fish...

I can not change this line system, as my experience tells me, that they are necessary for connecting with the Salmon in my local river.

I do not use DH rods all that often, as I mostly use single hand rods for my Salmon fishing, so it’s not that often I need to do this cast, but still, I hope some of you guys can help me with this issue... What (if anything) can I do?

Cheers, Bendix

PS: I do not have the equipment necessary to make a video of my casting...

[nicholasfmoore]

Hi Bendix,

Welcome to the board!

Sinking lines are a funny one, take out all the force (power) and drift drift drift drift drift (thanks Lasse). I always used to cast sinkers with a belgian cast, but i cast them straight and drift a lot now. There are a few reasons to drift, but in this case it cushions the rod tip so you are not hitting the 'boing'. Sinkers do tend to tuck (kick) quite heavily, so the drifting helps sort it out. You shouldn't get hit then.

Another reason for the fly coming close to you could be the fact your back cast trajectory is really quite steep, it could also be the pause too, but i think it's more to do with not drifting.

Thanks!

All the best

[Bendix]

Hi

Thank you for your reply.

But I am a bit unsure about what the term “drift” means?

The thing about using less force, is definitely something I will try. And as you said, these heavy sinking lines are a bit weird to cast overhead...

/Bendix

[Bendix]

Hi again

I just found a page somewhere here on Sexyloops that explains what drift is all about.

Along with using less power, I will see if I can find some time tomorrow to try this out on grass.

Thanks again

/Bendix

[nicholasfmoore]

Hi Bendix,

Sorry! Drift is repositioning the rod between casting strokes . Have you found Pauls Masterclass on here? I think it would help tremendously, it's single handed, but the same principals apply to any bendy stick.

The feel is quite subtle. When you 'stop' on the back cast, imagine 10kg weights have magically materialised on top of your fist/knuckles after the stop on the back cast. Gently PUSH these up towards the sky. Another nice way to think of it, is to go back and UP with the rod and to feel for the unrolling loop. Forgot to mention, try it with a bit more overhang too, maybe about 1m? Here is Pauls video

https://www.sexyloops.com/flycast/drift/

Good luck!

All the best

[Paul Arden]

Hi Bendix,

Some lines are an absolute pig to cast. I have some RÍO lines that no matter what I do go 90’ and collapse. I can only get turnover by hitting the reel. It is possible to design lines that don’t cast!

I’m guessing the lines you are using are optimised for Spey Casting. Spey orientated lines have always felt very “clunky” when cast overhead - despite the fact that poor casters get more distance overhead than with well-balanced lines!

But I’m no expert with the DHD. I’m sure you could teach me!

Incidentally why are you making O/H casts? Is it for more distance?

Cheers, Paul

[bartdezwaan]

Hi Bendix,
I experienced the same as you with a double hander, but had it with every line I used.
Funny thing is my experience is the exact opposite as the one Nick described.
I had the feeling that a slow backcast caused a sack in the line. This by itself causes the line to pass low.
Combined with a, wrongly timed, drift the problem got worse. My problem was I drifted only right before I started the forward cast. If you drift, you should start the drift earlier.
I omitted most of the technical details, but will try to link to the proper pages if you wish.

I would guess if you have a faster backcast and don’t drift, your line should not come back low. Here I am assuming that your line does not kick over to badly.

I am by no means a proficient double handed caster. This is just how I experienced it and maybe it helps you too.

Cheers, Bart

[Bendix]

Hi again

@Paul

Yes, the lines are originally designed specifically for Spey casting, and not Overhead casting. Which is also why they work fine when I do use them for Spey type casts, which I do most of the time. And this may be the cause of the whole problem...

The reason for doing a Overhead cast, is not distance, since I typically only need to shoot between 5 and 10 meters of line. The thing is, that my local river is not all that big (wide), and it’s impossible to wade, as the depth is usually around 4-8 feet right next to the bank. This means all the casting, including Spey casts, is done while standing on the bank. And every once in a while, swamp like conditions along the bank, means that you have to stand a couple of meters away from the water when you cast, making a Touch and Go type cast impossible. And that’s when I need to make an Overhead cast, but only shoot a short distance, since the river is relatively narrow.

But with these Spey oriented lines, it may very well be impossible, as you say.

@Bart

I will also try your advise about adding more speed, because last time I was practicing on grass, I did find that it seemed to help a bit. But the drawback was, that it seemed to cause the leader and fluff to “smash” into the ground, which in a fishing situation will most likely cause to spook the fish a bit.
But maybe if I try to make my forward stop a bit higher, I can avoid this.


Anyway, I’m off to the park in a little while, and will try out all of the advice given to me.

/Bendix

[Bendix]

Hello All

I’m back from the park, where I got a good 45 minutes of practice, before it got too cold for me...

I did try to lengthen the overhang to around 1 meter, which definitely helped.

But the whole drifting thing didn’t work at all, unfortunately.

What did help though, was adding more speed to the cast. And I think that is definitely the way to do it most efficiently.

@Paul
I think you are right, when you say that these heavy fast sinking lines are not good for overhead casting. As an experiment, I tried adding a floating tip to the line, and that definitely helped a whole lot! It still wasn’t perfect, but it was a lot easier to do the cast I’m trying to achieve.

If the weather permits, I’ll try and get some more practicing done next week.

Thank you all for your advice!

/Bendix

[Paul Arden]

Hi Bendix,

One option I was thinking about for you would be instead of mono shooting line would be to try using an old floating line. It doesn’t sound like distance is too great an issue. It would certainly assist turnover because it would slow the shoot. Something like an 8WT. It would be an interesting experiment anyway

Cheers, Paul