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Elbow Out Style

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Paul Arden
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Re: Elbow Out Style

#21

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:39 am

It might be just me but I don’t think this
410A5603-A6CE-4E80-8C28-5ED2ED5F84DE.jpeg
410A5603-A6CE-4E80-8C28-5ED2ED5F84DE.jpeg (27.36 KiB) Viewed 185 times
is this
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I agree, I think just looking at elbow position to name a style is very misleading and we really need to look at the complete movement. But to say it’s like throwing a ball is not at all what I’m seeing. In fact it’s because it’s nothing like throwing a ball that I have a problem with it.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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easterncaster
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Re: Elbow Out Style

#22

Post by easterncaster » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:56 am

One strong difference is the use of a tool.

- human: fly caster + quarterback
- object: fly line + football
- tool: fly rod + _______

John Waters
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Re: Elbow Out Style

#23

Post by John Waters » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:00 am

"I would need to combine two other throwing sports to get a quality comparison, namely throwing a dart (short line casting) and throwing a ball (long line casting)."

Hi Paul, I referred to a ball to illustrate the hand path after the cocking phase used by pitchers and quarterbacks. If you replace the bent arm cocking phase used by both with a fully extended throwing arm behind the thrower before the elbow is engaged, and track the full hand path, then equate it to javelin.

Hi Craig,

I agree that one difference is the use of the tool. I would add the fact we do not release the rod out of our hand as other throwing sports do, but in my opinion that is an outcome not a driver to technique.

The question I always tussle with is why does the fact that we use a rod and not release it impact what our body should do in casting it, other than the actual release action of the hand and fingers?

On second thoughts, let me amend that statement about not releasing the fly rod in the throwing motion. I have thrown the odd rod down the field after a particularly frustrating cast outcome.

Speaking of taking your frustration out on thr rod or whatever is close at hand, I can recall an Australian Casting Championship in Melbourne years ago and the fly distance event. The accuracy events had concluded and all the lead weights, used to secure the many accuracy hoops in place had been collected and placed in a bucket at the edge. One caster, who no longer competes (not me) was particularly unhappy with his distance casting result and stepped off the platform, saw a bucket and decided he would kick it into the next postcode, not knowing it was full of lead weights. Spent the rest of the day nursing a badly bruised big toe, but he did see the funny side.

John

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Re: Elbow Out Style

#24

Post by easterncaster » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:45 am

Hi John,

An early morning for me based on frustration within another facet of my life. :asleep: I was just about to revise my post, alas it is too late.

Agreed, we release the javelin, while in fly casting we keep the rod and release the line. The rod is a middleman so to speak, an extension of our arm, yet with differing attributes. The rod does not act like our arm. It is an extension from a different mother :D. As well, how we hold the rod (tool) forces us to adjust our arm/joints. Ergonomics. Depending on the handle shape etc... of the object, our body will prefer a certain position. That position most often requires acclimation, a learning phase. Fly casting is not 'natural' - same could be said in regards to throwing/spiraling a football.

There is marriage of body armature (it's safe and fluid parameters) and the needs of the activity. Training to do the activity includes 1) learning the form, adaption. 2) supporting it with staying in shape, upkeep.

Not convinced that what I wrote makes sense :???: .

Re frustration: Casts in anger, yes, but never fully let go of a rod in anger. I have though hurled a few construction tools out towards the horizon... :whistle: :glare:

CB

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Re: Elbow Out Style

#25

Post by George C » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:37 pm

Hi Paul

Would a description as "Extended Arm Style" better fit the subject you raised at the start of this thread?
The question then becomes whether or when there may be a use for casting with the arm extended through out the stroke. Say an elbow extension of >90 degrees throughout an overhead cast (leaving sidearm casts out of it for the moment).

I know when wading deep or casting over a high center console I have cast with my arm extended high. Obviously learning to use a high energized backcast can reduce the need for this, but if the portion of the fly leg behind me needs to clear something at its nadir and the cast calls for a flat (rather than downward) trajectory then the added height achieved by raising one's arm seems intuitively useful.

Yesterday I went out and experimented a bit. It was tiring but I could still throw about 80' doing this provided I added arc length by rocking a lot (a longer haul also seemed possible) . Fortunately no one saw me.

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Re: Elbow Out Style

#26

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:03 pm

That’s a difficult question for me George, because I’ve never seen it as a style and always thought it was a fault :laugh: I didn’t name it and I was surprised to see it being taught. But seeing as it is being taught I was curious to see what the benefits might be. I can think of a few names for it of course.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Elbow Out Style

#27

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:48 pm

On the FFi Zoom session they referred to it as either belly-boat style or float-tube style, but I don't remember which. I caught the concept, not the exact name.

I have, in the past, referred to it as kayak casting, so it made sense to me.

In all those cases getting the rod up and not having your legs to help are similar..

I guess you could make up a competition where everyone has to cast while treading water, and then it would be legit? :D
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

John Waters
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Re: Elbow Out Style

#28

Post by John Waters » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:57 pm

Your post makes sense to me Craig. I agree with a number of the points you raised.

The rod does not act like the arm. It cannot.

The grip is an essential to both short line and long line technique because it controls the range of wrist movement, necessary to achieve the objectives of either stroke.

Training or practice is an essential for learning, so rather than limit your outcomes, practice correct technique. To quote Vince Lombardi, "only perfect practice makes perfect" Why waste your time practising limiting movements?

John

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Re: Elbow Out Style

#29

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:43 am

OK I agree that there are times when we cannot make the perfect cast. There are brambles in every direction, we are swimming down the river trying to make a shot, laying in the bottom of the boat hiding under the seat, possibly we have dug ourselves into a rabbit burrow with only our wrist appearing...

If elbow out is “kayak” or “float tube” style, then why isn’t the guy in the photo sitting in a kayak? (I’ve fished in kayaks a lot by the way but no one told me I should be casting like this and so I cast normally). This restrictive, limited, uncoordinated-looking style, is being used as a default style for every casting circumstance, from short accurate casts to long distance shots. So if your not sitting in a kayak or wading up to your neck – or even if you just don’t know it – then I think there are better techniques.

I’m going fishing :cool:
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jarmo
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Re: Elbow Out Style

#30

Post by jarmo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:09 am

Paul Arden wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:03 pm
But seeing as it is being taught I was curious to see what the benefits might be.
Many moons ago I used to cast a little 6' 3wt with this technique. With a sprinkle of hindsight, I can identify some advantages:
  • Tracking is excellent. With the forearm rotating in a single plane, and keeping your thumb (and wrist movement) in that plane, all movement is kept in the plane.
  • Effort is very small, because of the tiny amount of mass being moved. For example, in a body-centric approach you may move tens of kilograms, while here everything from elbow downwards can be kept pretty much static (except for arm rotation in shoulder socket; I do not know the physiological name for this degree of freedom in shoulder movement).
  • Easier to see the loops.
  • Distance of line from caster is larger.
It can be very hard on the shoulder. Then again, when (trout) fishing, the number of casts can be considerably smaller than when, say, training for an instructor test.

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