180 "tails".

[Morsie]

Why would it become a tailing loop remains very unclear to me.

Bernd so if we have a tracking issue at less than 180 degrees in the horizontal how does the FC unroll, and if we have a bloody L in a Spey cast (also a 180 or tracking issue) how does the fc unroll? I see them as part of the same issue, just in a different plane.

In the saltwater world, because people are trying hard to avoid being hit by heavy flies I see misaligned bc/fc casts all the time, and the result is never pretty because of this exact thing. Or the wind has blown their bc out of alignment.

[Morsie]

Here's a diagram for you Bernd just in case there's some kind of language misunderstanding - and from what I can recall this agrees entirely with Aitor's argument, or at least my understanding of it.

This is looked at from above.

Find a straight line. Lay the back cast on the ground as shown and then without making an advanced caster adjustments throw a forward cast straight down the line in front of you (at less than 180 degrees) as a an intermediate caster would throw it. Its pretty simple really. The line wants to go 180 degrees to the bc but we throw it in a different direction - hence the tail or closed loop. This is best done on the road.

Tell me how the fc looks.

I will film this but need to set up a camera overhead.

Oh and by the way - by doing this with a broomstick I recreated the same shape - will also film that. Hence my original question - is it a tail or is it a closed loop? Whatever it is, its still a problem. I call it a closed loop.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Bernd,

It’s the *only* way I can throw a tail with a broomstick. The wave is the tip path in relation to the line angle. I would think the difference between a dangling end and a tail in this regards has to do with how quickly the wave travels down the fly leg which is turn depends on the amount of tension in the fly leg. Of course we don’t have a definition of dangling end either. However since dangling ends and tailing loops are both transverse waves in the fly leg it’s going to be interesting keeping them distinct if that is indeed possible.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

I think some of these questions have to do with line length Morsie. It’s not a problem is the length of the line is short. We can break all these rules. Eg the Steeple Cast.

So take a short carry. No problems. Longer carry = closed loop. Still longer carry can give a dangling end or a tailing loop. (Depending unfortunately again on definitions that don’t exist yet).

This is beginning to remind me of those Creep arguments of years ago

So when I look at this, I ask what is best for teaching? Is breaking 180 in or out? When is a dangling end a tailing loop? I also suspect it really only concerns instructors teaching advanced students, or indeed other instructors. I personally don’t have a preference and I’m very comfortable with both arguments and I have taught from both perspectives.

If you say a tailing loop is crossed loop with a double intersection of the fly leg, I’m sure there are circumstance when you can get that breaking 180. If you were to pinpoint tailing loops down to tip path made during the stroke and dangles (no matter how they look, even looking like a tail) to line configuration and in relation to the beginning of the casting stroke, then they are out.

Personally I think we are down to semantics. I can make an equally valid and strong argument for both cases. I would be quite happy for that decision to be make on the spin of a coin. Of course I reserve the right to change my opinion

Cheers, Paul

[Morsie]

I disagree about line length Paul and I'll film it to clarify. My original question was the around the difference between the "true tail", ie the U shape in the fly leg for want of a better descriptive, or the closed loop. I understand its semantics but isn't Sexyloops the home of fly casting semantics????

[Paul Arden]

Oh yes I’m happy to discuss it for months Morsie

While you are getting that closed loop what would happen if you doubled the carry? As I know you can!

Cheers, Paul

[Dirk le Roux]

It's not the <180 bend that screws the casts you showed, Morsie.

If you track the bends frame by frame, you will see that the "tails" originate from the bend placed by a dip-and-rise in the stroke. The yellow arrow shows the <180 bend, which quickly propagates out the fly leg. The red arrow shows the dip-and-rise bend:

All the best,
Dirk

[Morsie]

But Dirk isn't that the consequence of changing the plane?

[Dirk le Roux]

But Dirk isn't that the consequence of changing the plane?

Not necessarily. That stroke will throw the same "tails" whether you have a <180 set-up or not. Put differently, make the same <180 casts with a smooth, non dip-and-rise forward stroke and there should be no issue. That is what I have pointed out in the waypoints thread and what Aitor showed in the now removed clip.

You do however sometimes see the <180 bend morph into a full-blown dangle that indeed crosses the rod leg, as in the from-above clip which George provided the link to. Dangle dynamics seems to not be down to initial geometry only, as from the same initial bend situation you may have the bend propagate uneventfully out the fly leg or morph badly. I suspect that smoothness or lack thereof in the stroke leading out of such a bend plays an important role.

All the best,
Dirk

[Bernd Ziesche]

Peter,
according to your initial video Dirk and I are obviously on the same page. It's a tailing loop caused by partially concavity in tip path early in the casting stroke, which doesn't have to be there.

However looking at your drawing, I don't disagree with how you explain the outcome.
Aitor made a brilliant video of me overhead casting filmed right down from a bridge. My rod plane was slightly tilted sideways as we all have it mostly. The unrolled bc wasn't straight but having a slight hang due to gravity. The moment I started the fc had simularities with your drawing. Just little less extreme. What that does is increasing the dangling end. Yes, on high line speed and/or wind one easily catches onself with the fly here (agree).
On long carries it all gets extra pronounced (further from straight path for the line end). The distance phenomenon comes in for all of us at some point. To answer your initial question: That's not a tailing loop. It's also not really a closed loop to me. A closed loop to me is one, in which low line speed allows gravity to pull the fly-leg down below the rod-leg, while both legs are in proper relation to the target. Now the dangling end can give the fly-leg a direction being too much off target and at long carries killing everything we'd call a proper unrolling.
In summary I differentiate between:
A) tailing loop (wave in the fly-leg caused by a dip and rise in tip path)
B) dangling end (line end can't follow tip path, because the unrolled line a) wasn't straight and b) wasn't aligned with the initial accel. tip path)
C) distance phenomenon (on long carries and high line speed it all gets that much pronounced, that the line end gets such a bad direction and crosses the rod-leg finally making the unrolling crash)

Regards
Bernd

P.S.: Paul, a video prof of a tailing loop on a broomdtick and I shall stay corrected.