PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!

Sloppy Rod

Moderators: Paul Arden, stesiik

Post Reply
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 14688
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 1
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Sloppy Rod

#61

Post by Paul Arden » Sun May 02, 2021 3:06 pm

I’m back!

So Torsten I don’t think that it’s overall stiffness, rather the difference is action. You can have two rods with the same stiffness but one bends a lot under the handle and another not at all, where in fact you want something that bends somewhat through the cork. I think that’s the unexpected feeling we get. Although why it results in a tail I can’t say.

I personally would prefer appropriate “fishing tackle” to be used in the championships. However who is to say what a 5WT rod qualifies and how to regulate it? I’m pleased at least that the line has been standardised. Apart from taking ERN measurements or restricting the rod to one model how else can it be done? Combined accuracy/distance games do work but that’s not the game here.

Are we really going to have every rod measured for stiffness before the competition?

The rod that really popularised this even was the TCR5 but Bill couldn’t cast that rod and so invented the CC System!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 4390
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Re: Sloppy Rod

#62

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sun May 02, 2021 3:35 pm

It was the SP+ Bill couldn't cast, so he invented the CCS system...

I'm happy to have the rods open, but stick us all in knee deep water!


Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 14688
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 1
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Sloppy Rod

#63

Post by Paul Arden » Sun May 02, 2021 3:45 pm

I think you should be sitting in the water Lasse to compensate for being 7 feet tall.
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

Torsten
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:34 pm

Re: Sloppy Rod

#64

Post by Torsten » Sun May 02, 2021 7:36 pm

Hi Paul,
I personally would prefer appropriate “fishing tackle” to be used in the championships. However who is to say what a 5WT rod qualifies and how to regulate it? I’m pleased at least that the line has been standardised. Apart from taking ERN measurements or restricting the rod to one model how else can it be done? Combined accuracy/distance games do work but that’s not the game here.
Are we really going to have every rod measured for stiffness before the competition?
Sorry for being off-topic. OK I'm sure this is a controversial topic. I remember for the German championships they used random samples for gear checking and already the rod length has to be measured. Additional stiffness measurements wouldn't be that difficult, for example you could define two test weights (like the 15° method, faster to measure than CCS) and check the deflection at these weights. Maybe the ICSF considered this to be too much hassle or it was a political decision? BOTW had a rod restriction as far as I remember (?)

Lasse,
I'm happy to have the rods open, but stick us all in knee deep water!
AFAIK the spey guys do this already. But in this case I'd argue that I'm fishing often from the bank (e.g. lake fishing) and often I need there distance, so even casting from a platform isn't too unrealistic.

Torsten.

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 4390
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Re: Sloppy Rod

#65

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sun May 02, 2021 9:42 pm

Torsten, they do, so all the venues have to have lanes where you stand in water anyway.
Most of my fishing is done in waders , on the coast, where I often need distance. Most 5 weight fishing is river fishing, where alot stand in water, and sometimes need distance..

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 4390
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Re: Sloppy Rod

#66

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sun May 02, 2021 9:42 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:45 pm
I think you should be sitting in the water Lasse to compensate for being 7 feet tall.
Thats Vidar, not me, I'm short!
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 14688
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 1
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Sloppy Rod

#67

Post by Paul Arden » Sun May 02, 2021 10:18 pm

You can stand in the water, Lasse, I mostly stand on my boat. I’m happy to stand on this movable platform if you want to go wading! :p

Yep, Torsten, BOW had a choice of three different rods I believe. TCR was one of them and while that’s not quite how it started it was obviously very instrumental. I can’t remember if was Stefan, Sakari, both? – certainly some of the guys here who were involved in the rules making. I’m happy with whatever the consensus of the guys and girls involved want. I like the simplicity of what we currently have… one line, any rod you want - it has a length limit. Anyone can do that. Just buy the line. Of course an average caster can’t make the stiff rod / light line combination work, but average casters don’t go to the world championships anyway. IMO the same guys and girls throwing the longest casts, will still be the ones throwing the longest casts, even with noodles.

It doesn’t actually make a huge amount of difference. Over the last ten years we have crept stiffer and I’ve seen that happen and I’ve also been playing catch-up! I’m actually a better caster for it.

The fairest competitions I’ve been in are the SL Shootouts. Everyone casts using the same gear and it’s a wide variety of gear. Usually at least 8 sets, sometimes more. But with 100 people on trout distance that’s simply not possible. Besides I see this as a very specific championship. It’s a game in its own right.

I don’t actually know anyone who goes to these games who has a problem with it. You could argue that you’ll get more casters attending if everyone was casting softer rods… but I don’t think we are trying to build a popular casting weekend. We are having a competition. It’s purely about the line and not the rod. I’m just pleased that the line is restricted!!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

User avatar
sms
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:12 pm
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Sloppy Rod

#68

Post by sms » Mon May 03, 2021 12:22 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 10:18 pm
I can’t remember if was Stefan, Sakari, both? – certainly some of the guys here who were involved in the rules making.
Rules for which competitions?

On the topic, I kind of know the feeling when it feels that the rod "buckles"/becomes sloppy. I am 100% with James that the rod does not become less stiff (the point it becomes less stiff is when it breaks), but the stiffening rate of the rod vs bend is less than the caster expects versus the input. They don't feel like they would "lock", they feel like they just bend more (they all bend more even if they feel they "lock" - unless they break).

I recently tried a few different butt sections on my 18' Daiwa. One of them is much softer than the original (it didn't explode like I expected it to). That made the rod feel completely different in all aspects. Some would say that it "buckles"/becomes sloppy, but it just bends and bends.
I'm here just for the chicks.

-Sakke

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 14688
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 1
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Sloppy Rod

#69

Post by Paul Arden » Mon May 03, 2021 3:04 pm

I agree with that. But the interesting thing is that the rod doesn’t feel soft to begin with. It just seems to feel soft when it should feel stiff. I think that the butt is just too flexible. Even a soft rod can have a rigid butt.

It can be the other way around too of course. If the butt is too rigid it has little feel, particularly in longer distance accuracy.

Were you involved in the rules for the World Championships with FFing tackle, Sakke? I remember having a conversation about it but I can’t remember who with :D

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

User avatar
Merlin
Posts: 1575
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:12 pm
Location: France

Re: Sloppy Rod

#70

Post by Merlin » Mon May 03, 2021 6:29 pm

rod break.JPG
rod break.JPG (26.93 KiB) Viewed 61 times
I guess you remember this test. The bending radius is less than one foot and the rod breaks for a rather high value of strain (estimated). This strain level is smaller than the one from graphite fibers (1.8% approx), and this is normal since it ovalises in such conditions. Long cylinders usually break under compressive buckling in their lower part, somewhere along the compressed side (inside the curve drawn by the rod). This limit is pretty close to the limit corresponding to maximum ovalisation capability which would however represent less than 1% in this case. I do not think anyone can bring a rod under these conditions during a long cast.

If I consider the Instron test results, breaking should have happened with something like a 10 mm deflection at the center of the sample. I made an educated guess of the dimensions of the #4 rod piece sample and found a reasonable match with usual graphite material characteristics. In the Instron test conditions the sample broke with a very low level of ovalisation (something like 0.2%), so the conclusion is that there was either a structural problem within the sample or the jig pressure in the middle of the rod contributed to the break (just like Tim demonstrates how he can break a piece of rod tip with the help of his thumb). Anyway we are not able to see the beginning of an ovalisation issue with a graphite sample.

It would be nice if someone (Lasse volunteered as far as I remember) could send a piece of glass rod to James so that he can perform some test. Glass can withstand large deflection and ovalisation, so the test is very interesting. If possible, a rod made of glass woven fabric would be fine (if the rod is not painted, you can see the cloth), rather than an unidirectional fibers one (more expensive, anyway). The ovalisation capability would be larger with the woven fabric.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

Post Reply

Return to “Flycasting”