Casting practice with heavy lines

[John Waters]

Thanks Paul, that is a great post. Love your term "turning up the volume", an excellent description. There is much food for thought in your response to my questions. I need to take some time to let that sink in.

Thanks again, much appreciated,

John

[Phil Blackmar]

John-Yes, you do feel the ball interact with the face. Nick Faldo has described it as applying the face of the club to the ball to get the desired result. Much like what Paul said, often you will focus on what you want to feel from impact forward or what the ball feels to be doing from impact forward and the rest takes care of itself due to the training, The average player has difficulty in attaining this performance plateau.

Paul-Yes, science has invaded golf over the past 20-30 years to the point many instructors and performance coaches have become obsessed with using science. Science is great, there just needs to be a blend of science and the human component. Golf is played outside under an infinite number of conditions and situations. It is a game of adjustment and recognition not a perfected laboratory swing. The arguments are more about the use of science and it's applications than the science itself. For some reason, people fall on one side or the other when the answer lies in a blend of both. Feels have become taboo in golf because of their inaccurate nature scientifically when in reality, that's all we have to use in focus and concentration when trying to create a shot on the course. I must jump off the pedestal now or I may never stop.

Paul-You spoke of sequentially feeling what you want to do. What do you FEEL is the timing of the haul on the distance cast? I'm thinking my haul timing is all F'ed up on the forward cast and that's why I'm struggling with completing the task you have asked of me where I drive the rod tip to the ground, Also, you described the feeling of weight. Are there sudden changes in the amount of weight you feel or does it stay as a consistent increase through the snap?

Thank you gentlemen.
Phil

[Paul Arden]

Back in a sec. I have to go on the roof

[Paul Arden]

Yep I had to check that. The first part is easy. You need to feel an increasing weight with the hauling hand. Most people think the haul is flat out as fast as you can go. It’s not. It has to start slowly. So feeling for the line weight with the hauling hand is very important. And this feeling increases all the way through the haul.

The rod hand is different. Up to the hit everything feels heavier and heavier. Whereas during the hit (for want of a better word) it starts to feel lighter and lighter. (That’s the bit I had to check)

Work between the two. When hauling try taking most of the power out from the rod hand. There is a balance between them. In fishing casting I’m much more shifted to the haul. And for most casting that’s all you ever need.

The timing is the same for each; the haul “explosion” (the hit on the haul, so to speak) and the thumb over on the rod (hit from the rod hand) both commence at the same time. That makes it easy when you switch to max distance. The other way of thinking about it is to finish to max arm outstretch, separating your hands as far apart as possible, making aeroplane wings. On the 170 this applies to both directions. With Open Stance distance only the front delivery cast. Finishing the hauling arm straight is very important for long casts. As is keeping the bend in the elbow at the beginning of the haul; we must haul from a bent elbow (not doing so is a major fault on the forward delivery haul for most people – they swing from the shoulder, no doubt because they have been taught to bring their hands together for the start of the forward cast). What I did was work out how to make my fastest, most explosive hauls, and then build my stroke around that. You can practise slow slow slow hit, slow slow slow hit.

I think it’s a mistake to simply think of the haul as being an add-on component to the cast. It’s not. It controls everything. Timing, pace, balance to an extent, and when to apply the force. Easiest way to learn it is to really concentrate on your haul and think of the rod as in for the ride. Ultimately the power application for each feels, to me anyway, like clicking both fingers at the end of the stroke.

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

This is exactly what I need Paul. I sensed my haul was too late and too abrupt on the forward cast. The backcast is better. My forward cast haul commences the same time as the snap with the rod hand. I do cast with just the haul but have never heard of the haul starting slow and accelerating. I'm in Mississippi working this week. Found a great park to practice with all sorts of straight lines for football (soccer) fields and it has really helped my tracking. Yet, this part has been missing. It's 8 am here, we are not on air until 3 pm. I am on my way.....

[Paul Arden]

Great! I hope it works. If it’s working in one direction and not the other, try casting off the side and putting the line down on the ground between strokes. Go in slow motion to see where the differences are. You probably have the slow start to the haul on the backcast because your rod hand is moving away from your hauling hand. On the forward cast rotating the shoulders helps to get the rod hand in front of the hauling hand in that direction.

I agree with you on the science, Phil! Mel Krieger was one of the great instructors. He divided people into poets and engineers. And like you I think it’s a mixture of both. Mostly however I think it’s like teaching poetry.

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

That is all very interesting!

I personally cast by feel almost exclusively, at least once the mechanics are ironed out. I can predict how the cast will look immediately from how it felt, and I am sure others can do the same. That sense of feel, or finding it, has been the biggest step in teaching myself to cast left handed... the senses in the hands are reversed.

What is really interesting to me is that I do not use a "hit", or at least not anymore. There was a time in my life when I was casting very long (for me) and had a number of 130+ on the ruler with witnesses. I believe that was probably with 7 wt lines/rods as it around when I was practicing for MCI. I remember blasting being the term back then, if I remember correctly... its been a while!

These days, however, I deliberately attempt to cast as smoothly as I possibly can and use the least amount of power necessary. When I am having my usual good day, I cast beyond my 100' marker repeatedly and my goal is to make it look effortless... that is when using my right hand, not my left. I'm not there yet with my left but it is a goal.

To me, feel equals loop shape, and particular loop shapes are the goal for every cast. And I guess that might be another place where I differ as I find that easy 100' cast is achieved when I open my loop larger, not smaller.

But, my question is... how much distance does the "hit" add to the cast?

I'm sure, or at least I think I am sure, that no one uses a "hit" for normal casts?

So... if a "normal" cast is 100', what would you expect that same cast plus the "hit" to reach???

[Paul Arden]

That’s such a good question Gary. And that’s what I was eluding to with

When hauling try taking most of the power out from the rod hand. There is a balance between them. In fishing casting I’m much more shifted to the haul. And for most casting that’s all you ever need.

So to answer your question I’ll just reverse it. If a comp caster is throwing 120’ without the wind, and you ask him to to throw just letting it “float out there”, without the hit, it will be very close. Maybe 110’. Those are numbers pulled out of the sky but I think they are about right. It’s certainly a much smaller difference than most people might think.

I also agree with you on the loop. Straight top leg aligned to target, that’s what is important. Loop width only seems to matter when casting into slots. That’s one reason why I think training wide to narrow is better than training narrow short to narrow long. It also might save your rod tip!

I do use the “hit” when fishing though. I use it to generate high line speed for fast shots. I hit from the perpendicular all the way through to pointing at the target.

Cheers, Paul

[George C]

.....The timing is the same for each; the haul “explosion” (the hit on the haul, so to speak) and the thumb over on the rod (hit from the rod hand) both commence at the same time. That makes it easy when you switch to max distance.

Hi Paul,
I'm sorry but the statement above surprises me.

Merlin's excellent post (#36 in this thread https://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/vi ... 3&start=30) suggests that peak angular rotational velocity (i.e., the hit with the rod hand) typically precedes the peak haul velocity for most distance casting.....hence the mantra to "haul late".

Are you actually peaking both force applications together or in sequence......even if they feel like they start simultaneously?

Thanks
G

[John Waters]

John-Yes, you do feel the ball interact with the face. Nick Faldo has described it as applying the face of the club to the ball to get the desired result. Much like what Paul said, often you will focus on what you want to feel from impact forward or what the ball feels to be doing from impact forward and the rest takes care of itself due to the training, The average player has difficulty in attaining this performance plateau.

Paul-Yes, science has invaded golf over the past 20-30 years to the point many instructors and performance coaches have become obsessed with using science. Science is great, there just needs to be a blend of science and the human component. Golf is played outside under an infinite number of conditions and situations. It is a game of adjustment and recognition not a perfected laboratory swing. The arguments are more about the use of science and it's applications than the science itself. For some reason, people fall on one side or the other when the answer lies in a blend of both. Feels have become taboo in golf because of their inaccurate nature scientifically when in reality, that's all we have to use in focus and concentration when trying to create a shot on the course. I must jump off the pedestal now or I may never stop.

Paul-You spoke of sequentially feeling what you want to do. What do you FEEL is the timing of the haul on the distance cast? I'm thinking my haul timing is all F'ed up on the forward cast and that's why I'm struggling with completing the task you have asked of me where I drive the rod tip to the ground, Also, you described the feeling of weight. Are there sudden changes in the amount of weight you feel or does it stay as a consistent increase through the snap?

Thank you gentlemen.
Phil

Thanks Phil,

I think the benefit that science can offer fly casting is to identify what we should "feel" during the cast. In my view, science and measurement will identify optimum movement. That part is the impersonal process. The application of that technique will identify the "feel" triggers each of us use to apply that movement. That part is the personal process. Both are required.

John