Casting practice with heavy lines

[John Waters]

I agree Lasse.

What do people feel when they cast with with either late or delayed rotation?

John

[Paul Arden]

This is where it gets complicated because it’s not the same for everyone. We know that as instructors because if we say one thing to five people, three do what we want and two do something else. When teaching we often give analogies, climbing the “casting ladder” to get where we want, and each person is different; different analogies work for different people.

For example throwing a ball, a dart, flicking paint off a brush, ringing a bell, throwing a potato off the rod tip, dunking a basketball, poking your thumb in someone’s eye… are all quite different. Yet are all used to teach the forward cast. But I wouldn’t use them all on the same person, at least not at the same time!

We also have the problem that a change of movement, even when right, can feel “wrong” simply because it’s a change from what he/she has done a million times before.

I often go the other way and ask the student how does it feel?

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

What do people feel can be dangerous because no two people feel things the same way. Feels are often founded in contrast and can change over time.

For shorter casts for me, an earlier rotation avoids a tailing loop. As the cast gets longer, 60-90 ft, I am in limbo because I can do both. It seems my accuracy when throwing at rings in this range is better with a smooth transition, more translation and late rotation. It's as if the rod is gently applying force or tension to the line gradually over.a longer distance. Yet, if I use less wrist hinge, more of a 10-2 length stroke with earlier rotation, then I can keep the tip more level and get a very tight loop even out to 90 ft. The second stroke feels like its all in tip bend and the late rotation stroke feels like it bends the butt section more. So, basically, I don't have any idea what I want to feel, that's why I ask you guys (and women).

For the 5 MED distance stuff, I haven't figured out the hammer at the end of the final cast. I get the tightest loop and more line speed with a significant short snap but it feels to me like there needs to be a longer distance were the rod is accelerating thru the final moments of the stroke. I have tried the open grip and snap close at the same time but my loop is no good. The top line goes up and over too much and it is not a straight line.

Do you feel all translation stops during the snap and then the hand extends or do you feel the snap rotation thru the end of the stoke out to extension?

This is why I don't understand the 170 forward cast. I feel like I can do a decent job on the back cast but the forward cast doesn't resemble the back cast. I seem to do better on the forward distance cast with very late rotation where my elbow stays ahead of my hand well out in front of my body. This is not what I see when I watch WC competitions on video, however.

I'm looking forward to the day I can watch someone really good at this in person. It's hard to really see and "feel" watching videos.

[Paul Arden]

For the 5 MED distance stuff, I haven't figured out the hammer at the end of the final cast. I get the tightest loop and more line speed with a significant short snap but it feels to me like there needs to be a longer distance were the rod is accelerating thru the final moments of the stroke.

Usually casters working on distance try to increase stroke and speed while keeping the loops tight.

I have another drill to try. Instead of trying to throw a tight loop with a long carry simply throw the rod tip into the ground on the backcast. Remove the slack, and repeat on the forward cast, again into the ground. Rotation should be delayed but in no way truncated. Even go as far as to dome the hand path as well. It can even be a straight arm.

Do this for a bunch of times and then gradually narrow the movements down. In other words we are exaggerating all movements and finally at the end tightening the loops as opposed to trying to increase movements while keeping the loops tight.

There are lots of benefits to this approach. I think in particular it’s a good way of being smoother.

Interestingly it’s a similar drill to how instructors teach open water swimming.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Thanks Paul and Phil for your replies.

I am hoping to start a casting project next month Paul and am interested in what casters feel when they connect with a long cast. I understand the actions we use to illustrate casting to students, but am interested in what the caster feels.

You are both correct that "feel" is an indistinct and ephemeral term, and certainly is different for each. I am interested in whatever that feel is to you e.g. do you feel something with the rod and line on a long cast at release or, prior to release etc.?

Equally Phil, I would be interested in what you, or other golfers, feel when you hit a long drive off the tee e.g. do you feel the shaft bend, maybe the weight of the club head etc.?

My thoughts are that you should feel the body, not the equipment, but that may not be the case with all.

Thanks,

John

[Phil Blackmar]

Hi John

"Equally Phil, I would be interested in what you, or other golfers, feel when you hit a long drive off the tee e.g. do you feel the shaft bend, maybe the weight of the club head etc.?

My thoughts are should feel the body, not the equipment but that may not be the case with all.

A truly long drive golfer, I was 2nd in the US National Long Drive Championships in 1985 and 5th in 1986, uses his or her body sequence to make the club move and react a certain way. This in turn creates a feeling in the motion of the club that is the focus of concentration."

At the beginning of the forward stroke, the feet go first with both pressuring the ground. The front foot then establishes an initial stabilization function which will likely be lost later in the swing. Next to go are the thighs and hips. The core, shoulders and wrists resist motion as long as possible. This is akin to stretching a rubber band. Then the core goes and the shoulders and wrists resist. The player should feel a stretching across the back at this time. Then the shoulders start to unwind and the arms follow suit. The wrists stay loaded, no rotation yet. The arms swinging downward is similar to translation in the casting stroke Just before impact the player can add a little more speed by pushing up and slightly backwards off the front foot. This initiates a little more rotation in the hips. The last thing to go are the hands and unhinging of the wrists. This is me at 17 years old....

The player feels the feet initiate, the body rotate, the stretch across the back, and now the shaft to begin to bend. The feeling is one of delaying counterflex in the shaft as long as possible. This is done by using body rotation, arm swing and hands to keep pressure on the shaft (acceleration) until counter flexing at the last minute. This is the feeling but high speed cameras have shown the shaft counterflexes prior to reaching the ball The last thing to go are the hands and the release (rotation in casting terminology) of the club. The body stops momentarily at this time so this process can take place. Continued translation of the swing right now makes for more consistent shots but actually slows clubhead speed.

Hope this helps John...
Phil.

[John Waters]

Thanks Phil, it should always be about the body i.e. the range of motion and sequencing of the segments. Just like all sports that generate hand speed through rotation, each accelerated segment must be paired with a block or stop, I call it a brake. The important thing for me is that the feeling of the shaft beginning to bend is the outcome, not the driver (excuse the pun). Not being a golfer I suspected you may feel the shaft bend before impact, but was not sure if that was the case.

On the same theme, do you feel the contact of the club head on the ball?

It is interesting that all the throwing sports are interchangeable when it comes to results. Those who are good at one throwing sport generally, very quickly, become good at another throwing sport. I think that is also true for sports involving a hitting action. It is far more than just "being well coordinated". It is being aware of correct movement technique. In fly casting, we get far too caught up in the concept that rotation generally applies only to the rod; - it is far more comprehensive than that.

Thanks for clarifying, greatly appreciate your detailed response.

Apologies for hijacking this thread. Bloody hell, I go on with some crap, don't I.

John

[Phil Blackmar]

hahahaha, you and me both John.....

[Paul Arden]

Interesting question, John. Very hard to answer!

I think what I feel is what I’m feeling for. In training I have a build-up sequence. It starts at the feet. So I’m feeling weight shift. Next I’m thinking about the body, and how it moves the elbow so I’m feeling the torso. Then I move to the rod, feeling how the rod feels in my hand. Then I change my focus to the line. I feel that separately; with the rod hand first, line hand next. I’m not sure if I’m actually feeling the line, but I am in my mind if you know what I mean, and I’m gradually accelerating it until it pops. It feels like it’s increasingly getting heavier. But that might be me trying to slow down the beginning of the stroke.

So that’s my build up. In training before comp I work on all of these things in this same sequence over months. And every time I throw.

The final bit, and the bit that matters in competition, is the launch. And that’s the “late” hit, rod butt passing perpendicular. That feels like clicking my fingers. I don’t work on this until everything else is right. I won’t teach anyone how to launch until everything else is right.

When I compete though I need to calm down / get in the groove / escalate. So I do the same thing ie focus on feet, body, feeling the rod/line and then finally the launch in order. And then, all I think about from that point on is the launch and the hit. I do this on the platform during competition. I find that really helpful especially under stress.

Hard to describe the hit. Smooth, rapid, “late”. It’s a very fine line between the perfect hit and a total fuckup. It’s very easy to hit it too early. And you immediately know when you’ve done it! I don’t have to see the loop; I know before that point what’s going to happen. How to describe it? It feels like a connected driving force to a release. It happens quite briefly but because we are totally focused on this “burst” we can control it. And we have to because it needs to be broken down; we are “turning up the volume” through the “hit”. How to describe it? “Heavy” maybe. In fact, apart from the feet and the haul, that’s how I would describe them all.

An interesting observation might be that in competition I am playing with adjusting the hit. Trying to find that perfect cast that hooks up.

I think one of the main things that we actually feel is the rod unloading. But that’s after the cast has been thrown. I use that a lot when teaching, especially intermediates. Another favourite of mine is to teach “feel for the weight of the line”. I think that came from Mel Krieger.

I also drive up on the leg through the launch. I know you don’t but block instead. It would be very interesting to study the differences. I do see and feel a difference between open stance distance and “sequential blocking” when compared to the Stopless 170, particularly on the launch.

On the same theme, do you feel the contact of the club head on the ball?

This is a very good question. I can’t remember if I asked this before or thought about asking it. That’s “the hit” in Flycasting. If you were to relate flycasting to golf stroke you would be thinking about the ball on the club head and how it’s being scooped and directed. That would be the “hit” as the rod passes MCL and beyond. At least that’s how I imagine both.

Do they argue about the physics of golf in golf forums Phil?

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Very nice explanation of the golf drive, Phil. Thanks! Where I see a difference between long casts and long drives, is that the drive is very much about focussing on what the body does up until ball contact and in flycasting, for me anyway, what I focus on is very much from that point from contact onwards. (Obviously there is always contact with the line, but the part that I would liken to the club head making contact to the ball is the rod at Minimum Chord Length which I think is when I think that the hit is initiated). There might be some disagreement on what I’ve just said there but that’s how it feels to me.

So the club is in counterflex before ball contact? That’s very interesting!

Cheers, Paul