Student Levels

[RSalar]

Hi Ron,

I believe context is very important.

Maybe 2% (?) of my students regularly fish dry flies to trout. That type of fishing just not something we have easy access to here in Western Australia. Why would they "need to make an accurate, delicate presentation with a dry fly out to 80 feet" before they could be called intermediate casters? Why would they need to roll cast to 50'?

Most of the guys in my club have no trouble double hauling to 80' but very few of them could accurately make a mend, an intentional slack line presentation or a roll cast to 40'. These are all skills that are so rarely used that they don't even register as something to learn. The guys in the club who easily reach 100' (and that's about 40% of them) are some of the best fishermen I've ever seen, and yet they can't roll cast to save themselves.

They are advanced casters for their particular fishing context.

Cheers,
Graeme

It’s just my opinion obviously and this all very debatable and fun to think about. Maybe Paul can tell us how many beginners can cast a single handed rod 80 feet or roll cast one 50 feet — if a beginner can’t do it, then it puts those casts in the intermediate category. Maybe the numbers are less … 70 & 40 or something. But I think distance is a very good measure of how proficient a person is at casting.

Throwing a nice dry fly presentation requires more skill than say plopping down a wet — it takes greater control and proficiency. So having that skill is an indication of a casters ability. And I believe an intermediate level caster should be able to learn the cast is ten minutes — it’s just about being able to control how the fly lands — an indication of skill level. The same goes for the roll cast — easily learned and something an intermediate level caster should know how to do just in case the need arises.

I don’t think someone who is an “advanced caster for their particular context,” makes them an advanced caster. That would be like a beginner saying he is advanced caster because in the context of throwing a big open loop 20 feet to a pond full of hungry stocked trout, he is very proficient.

To be an advanced caster you must be very proficient at a broad range of different casts because as you say ‘context is very important” and the context we are discussing is fly casting in general and levels of proficiency in that context. The context is not catching fish in one particular place, in one particular way. IMHO

Cheers!

[RSalar]

The guys in the club who easily reach 100' (and that's about 40% of them) are some of the best fishermen I've ever seen

There’s the key — and why we are thinking about this differently. You are talking about fishing and I am talking about casting. Someone can certainly be an advanced fly fisherman and not be an advanced fly caster. Two different topics tangled up into one.

[VGB]

I agree with Graeme, context is all important, people make skill level definitions that work for them but it is impossible to apply them globally. I fished yesterday with a 7' e-glass rod and a #3 line, I can't remember when I last had line of sight to a rising fish at 80ft on a river and I'd like to see someone hook a fish on a dry at that distance. 100ft casts with that set up would challenge most people and serve no purpose except for gonad measuring.

I mentioned earlier that I think that the definitions aren't fit for purpose for teaching and I haven't seen anything yet to make me change my mind. I refer back to my earlier point that I am only interested in whether the student can perform the skill that is under consideration. If not, then what are the technique/physical/mental barriers that are in the way, everything else is just instructor fluff

Regards

Vince

[Graeme H]

The guys in the club who easily reach 100' (and that's about 40% of them) are some of the best fishermen I've ever seen

There’s the key — and why we are thinking about this differently. You are talking about fishing and I am talking about casting. Someone can certainly be an advanced fly fisherman and not be an advanced fly caster. Two different topics tangled up into one.

Yep, it's fun to go back and forth on this because I don't have a soild answer myself.

Okay, so let me put it this way, because it's still valid:
"The guys in the club who easily reach 100' (and that's about 40% of them) are some of the best casters I've ever seen". Let's call them Advanced Casters, because 100' is no problem.

But put them on a river with a 3wt and dry fly and ask them to make a 40' upstream presentation cast and they probably couldn't do it. It's not a way of fishing that they need to practice for. Are we to call them beginners? Intermediate? Let's call them beginners because they can't make a presentation roll cast at any distance.

I believe loop control is a much better measure of competence than the distance someone can cast. Plenty of guys can hit 80' without too much problem. The advanced caster does it with ease and keeps tight sexy loops all the way out there. And of course, they can make tight loops at 20' too.

Cheers,
Graeme

[George C]

I believe loop control is a much better measure of competence than the distance someone can cast. Plenty of guys can hit 80' without too much problem. The advanced caster does it with ease and keeps tight sexy loops all the way out there. And of course, they can make tight loops at 20' too.

Cheers,
Graeme

Well said, Graeme.
I spent a year practicing until I could throw 100'. When I got there it all looked like total crap and it was clear I wasn't going to get any further by trying to optimize total crap. So I had to go back to 20' and learn how to cast. Humbling but fun.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

I know a number of what I would call excellent fly fishers and that means they are top (fishing) casters. I'm pretty sure if you asked them if they can cast 120' you would possibly get a confused look for an answer. And quite possibly a reply that was itself a question... something like "Why would you want to do that?"

The emphasis on casting distance is not really a main concern among these top anglers, although it is more common with newer guys in clubs. Then again, casting comps or even group casting practice is very rare... almost nonexistent. Which may explain why newer guys competing for distance are usually comparing how far they can throw their tailing loops.

I do often overhear the group of guides I know bemoan upcoming charters with "trout guys". These trips are tough for both parties, and it sometimes leads to casting lessons from me if the client is in town for multiple trips... so I'm not complaining.

From my experience it seems easier for good local fly anglers to learn trout techniques than it is for trout anglers to up their game in the wind.

Personally, I think the finesse required on a trout stream is a higher art than just quickly being able to blast a straight line into the wind. But they both have their place and are often critical for angling success.

But I have a hard time equating how far someone can cast a piece of yarn from a platform to numbers of fish.

[VGB]

I do often overhear the group of guides I know bemoan upcoming charters with "trout guys". These trips are tough for both parties, and it sometimes leads to casting lessons from me if the client is in town for multiple trips... so I'm not complaining.

From my experience it seems easier for good local fly anglers to learn trout techniques than it is for trout anglers to up their game in the wind.

What sort of trout fishing are you talking about? Reservoir with #6 and 7 sinking lines, medium rivers with leader only or 20ft leaders and a couple of feet of fly line, same leader casting #16 dries in daytime to rising sea trout, overgrown small stream with no back cast, dry fly presentations on an Alpine stream on a mountainside where you need to get a static presentation to get a take, down and across at night, Iceland or the Falklands with a #5 in winds that challenge your ability to stay upright? A lot of the trout guys here will fish #9 for pike in winter and may fish the salt for bass. As Graeme mentioned, I would suggest that you get good at what you practice.

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

Okay, so let me put it this way, because it's still valid:
"The guys in the club who easily reach 100' (and that's about 40% of them) are some of the best casters I've ever seen". Let's call them Advanced Casters, because 100' is no problem.

Maybe they are beginner learners but advanced casters or something?

[Paul Arden]

That’s why I don’t like numbers and particular distance numbers because it’s quite possible to throw 100’ and be intermediate. But on the other hand some of the best presentation casters in the world that I know, who have fantastic loop control, struggle to reach 100’.

A big difference between freshwater and saltwater is hauling. You cannot fish the salt successfully without being proficient at double hauling. It’s a huge jump from fishing the San Juan to fishing the Keys. But you really should practise that stuff before jumping on a plane!

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

I know a number of what I would call excellent fly fishers and that means they are top (fishing) casters. I'm pretty sure if you asked them if they can cast 120' you would possibly get a confused look for an answer. And quite possibly a reply that was itself a question... something like "Why would you want to do that?"

Because a 130+ footer gave me this

farouttrout.jpg (44.69 KiB) Viewed 691 times

Places where one fish usually has alot to say in whether or not, one want's to learn to throw far, or into a headwind or .....

Also, judging peoples abilities on the amount of fish they pull in is as arbitrary as judging them on distance.

Cheers
Lasse