The Language of Coaching

[VGB]

Very well worth a listen if you are interested in getting into the background of instruction:

A discussion with Nick Winkelman about his new book: The Language of Coaching- The Art & Science of Teaching Movement. Topics include: is there a place for the use of internal focus of attention cues, developing effective analogies, avoiding over-cueing and links between attentional focus cues and constraints.

https://perceptionaction.com/180/

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

What is the single external cue most applicable to the fly casting movement? The author talks about "holistic awareness" of motion and uses the very small elapsed time in baseball batting to explain why a single external cue is the only feasible option. If we equate the baseball analogy to the elapsed time of a fly distance delivery cast, (similar durations ?) what are examples of those single external cues coaches should consider?

John

[VGB]

I can’t help you with the distance stuff John but I tend to a single cue of a straight fly leg for standard overhead teaching, I may add looking at the fly leg going over the rod tip later on.

People look for similarities when reading across between activities but ignore the differences and I think it skews their conclusions. Consequently, I’m not convinced that because they can identify a single holistic external cue for baseball that it holds true for a fly cast because it is a multi phase activity. I don’t know how long there is between the ball leaving the hand and the bat striking in baseball but I suspect it is a lot shorter duration than a fly cast from pick up to delivery. I also suspect that the baseball batter might derive some information from the pitcher before delivery as well but couldn’t say what it is.

As an example of multi phase cues, I took my first DH lesson on Monday. Whenever, I’m on the receiving end, I find that I do reflect on the construct of the lesson and my own response to instruction not to be critical of the instructor but because I want to improve my own instructional techniques as well as my casting. With brand new skills, it gives me a refresher on how my own students might feel. In the lesson, I found that I was using similar external cues to my SH Spey. On the lift, I looked at the junction between line and water, sweep the line tip into the anchor, circle up and my eyes moved to the rod tip. For the delivery, I’m looking at the trajectory of the delivery and a clean separation of the anchor.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi Vince,

I use internal for technique training and both internal and external for competition training, different objectives, different focus.

I view fly casting as very 3 different segments; forward, back and delivery. Taken separately, each has a longer elapsed time than other sports that only have a delivery or release movement i.e. hitting a ball, throwing a ball or other object, but I suspect the cues may be similar.

I use both the fly and rod legs of my external focus.

Much appreciated,

John

[RSalar]

Sounds like an interesting podcast. I have a three hour drive today to look forward to. Will have a listen. Thanks, Ron

[RSalar]

What is the single external cue most applicable to the fly casting movement? The author talks about "holistic awareness" of motion and uses the very small elapsed time in baseball batting to explain why a single external cue is the only feasible option. If we equate the baseball analogy to the elapsed time of a fly distance delivery cast, (similar durations ?) what are examples of those single external cues coaches should consider?

John

Hi John,

I listened to the podcast twice, which is equivalent to saying that I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I’m not a professional instructor or coach but I am very interested in this topic from the standpoint of improving my own performance — whether it be casting, shooting, or whatever. From what I gathered the two guys agreed that external cues are “better.” One example that was used was teaching a kid how to ride a bike. He told the kid to look where he wanted to go and keep the bike moving, and then added that the kid would figure out the rest. Instead of telling him how to apply pressure to the peddles by pushing down with his leg muscles etc. As he was explaining this I was trying to think of how that method of teaching would apply to fly casting. It’s kind of like saying, “here take this rod and swing it over your head while looking at the target — you’ll figure out the rest.”

I don’t see how that would work in teaching fly casting. You have to explain how to move the fly rod —then demonstrate the motion — and correct the student when they try to cast. It’s all internal cues. Maybe if you are coaching an elite fly caster who has mastered the correct body movements you could help them by supplying a way to focus their attention on some external cue during the cast — like watching the rod to see when it passes vertical as a means of timing the haul?

I’ve always casted by feel so using visual cues is new to me and thinking about moving a new way puts my attention on the movement instead of feeling what’s going on. I think it will come in time … the old muscle memory theory—do it over and over until you don’t have to think about anymore. Hopefully then I’ll be able to focus on how it feels again. Because if I just cast without thinking I can cast better than when I have to think about moving a certain way.

—Ron

[Lasse Karlsson]

I don’t see how that would work in teaching fly casting. You have to explain how to move the fly rod —then demonstrate the motion — and correct the student when they try to cast. It’s all internal cues. Maybe if you are coaching an elite fly caster who has mastered the correct body movements you could help them by supplying a way to focus their attention on some external cue during the cast — like watching the rod to see when it passes vertical as a means of timing the haul?

—Ron

Hi Ron

Real beginners doesn't need to be told and explained how to move a flyrod. Shown from the right perspective how the line should go, they can quite often figure it out by themselves in a relativly short time.
You don't go over the small details of moving a hammer when teaching your kid how to hit nails, do you?

Cheers
Lasse

[John Waters]

Hi Ron,

I'm like you, and want to understand better the "what" - how do I move the rod to achieve improved casting performance? I have trouble understanding what external cues apply for a fly distance cast. Sure you can look at the rod position at a point in the stroke, or the line as it unfurls forward and back or feel the rod in your hand but I don't see these as assisting the critical linkages that are necessary for performance improvement. However, internal cues do achieve that for me. I look at the loop shape and that may be an external cue, but it is after the fact. I need to understand more about cues because focusing on the loop shape may trigger the correct movement changes I want to internalise, but I can't see that "cause and effect" link just at the moment.

John

[John Waters]

Good point Lasse.

Children are amazing, they pick things up so quickly and completely. At the other end of the scale you have me.

John

[Lasse Karlsson]

Don't sell yourself short John, there is a difference between being a blank page, and one riddled with scribbles and different messagea, one have to sort through to get to the core of something.

And having been on forums for a couple of decades now, the scale goes much further away from you and the kids than you would ever believe

Cheers
Lasse