Single handed distance roll casting

[Paul Arden]

Hi Macauley,

Great to see you back here. I hope you are well! Personally I don’t think that the Casting Stoke begins at RSP0 but instead when the objective is to accelerate the line. It’s possible to reposition the rod forwards before the Casting Stroke commences. We often see this on a Roll Cast for example. Which is a different way of looking at the above I think.

Which also answers Jarmo’s question above because normally to place line in a D loop we can take the rod tip back to 45 degrees behind vertical. But we might want to apply the force beginning closer to vertical. In which case small forward gentle rotation (forward Drift) is beneficial. In fact it’s very common. If we don’t do this we either (potentially) open the loop or set a high forward trajectory.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hello Macauley,
great to have you here, well appreciated!

So let's have a look on your latest roll casting video.
Before I go into the details, I want to define some key words, because I believe this is very important to avoid missunderstandings based on using different definitions.

The cast goes like:
RSP0 (rod straight position 0) = Start of applying force to create the desired line speed.
RSP1 = End of straightening, the tip already has started to decelerate slightly before this position. From here counterflexing (CF) starts.
MCF = Max counterflex (largest bend in casting direction). Just before rebounding starts.
RSP2 = Rebounding has ended.

Some general words:
Arc = Changing rod angle while applying force for rotating the rod to hit the desired line speed.

Stroke = Rod hand path when applying force to create the desired line speed (translation and rotation).

Drag = Rod translation pre main rotation within the stroke.

Creep I don't use, because it causes most confusion, so I just talk about rod movement instead.

Ok, hopefully this helps to understand each other best possible.
First of all I agree with your fine analyses, as long as it matches your definitions.

Since for me arc is all about acceleration, I mark the starting rod angle position (usually RSP0, if no pre bend by significant drag) very different compared to you. You said, you "creep". I prefer to say, you move (translate and rotate) the rod very slowly forward from the position you marked to be the start of YOUR arc. Your line almost hangs down straight and the rod yet shows close to zero bend post the start of your arc. You shift forward RSP0 within your arc. That to me isn't the start of arc as I define arc.
For making it more clear let's have a look at these stills:

For your wide loop cast you took a different procedure to mark the start of your arc. You now marked RSP0 exactly were it existed the last time before bend was put into the rod due to acceleration. Thus you now did not shift forward RSP0. Thus you get a smaller number for the degree (size) of arc:

I measured the arcs according to my definitions (RSP0 were it is seen the last time as starting the arc):
Tight loops:
1. - 3. 50 to 55 degrees each
Wide loop:
66 degrees (like you measured)
When you performed the 3 tight loops, you were using an abrupt stop. I see HUGE rod bend at MCF. Then you position RSP2 close to where RSP1 was.

Huge rod bend at MCF:

RSP 2 close to RSP1:

When you perform the wide loop, you are using a softer stop. I see much less rod bend at MCF. Then you position RSP2 much further away (down) from where RSP1 was.

Less bend at MCF:

RSP2 further away of RSP1:

That of course opens the loop front.
Two pretty different rates of deceleration: 3 x abrupt stop (high rate) and 1 x soft stop (low rate).

If you define the arc to include, what I think you call creep (early slow rod movement), then I agree with the arc not having one general impact on the size of loop. Using different stop procedures further supports your conclusion. Nothing to disagree.

Since I define the arc to be used to create the desired line speed and thus starts with acceleration (causing increasing rod bend), my concept remains:
The smaller the arc, the tighter the overall loop (seen for the whole period of unrolling) will be.
This does not mean, we can't shape loops, that at some point during unrolling I would call to be tight or even very tight loops, using wide arcs.
I shall add, this is just an easy teaching concept to me, not a waterproof principle, because there are too many variables we can change from one cast to the next. Just like changing rod hand path, the stop, the level of force application within the arc, pull back (as you added slightly in of the the tight loop casts, when I go into further detail), the angle between the line and the orientation of arc or the amount of line outside the tip (and many more).

Bottom line:
For me there is no shifting of rod straight position (or very very close to RSP and not increasing bend) within the arc, but at the beginning and the end of it only. Exactly why we ended up in different conclusions about the impact or no impact of the size of arc to the size of loop as far as I see it.

Of course these are just the definitions I use.

The FFI however defines creep to be rod rotation DURING the pause. And they define the pause to not be part of the stroke and arc. So according to them, if you creep, it must be pre arc, not during the arc.
I would agree, that there is micro bend in your rod within your arc until about 12, but that bend is so small. Our rod bends in the zero movement position, if not vertical by gravity anyway. Watching you tight loop rolls remind me of an old teaching phrase: No power before midnight.

Zero doubt you can demo very similiar with your ellbow on a table keeping out the (I agree) slight impact of differencies in pulling down path relative to changing rod angle. No need for this.

Kind regards and thanks for providing another fine video.
Bernd

[VGB]

Excellent video Macauley, thank you. I think the root cause of a lot of the confusion with casting outcomes is the fixation with the rod and alignment to 2D models, as I explained at Post 480:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3852&p=69400&hilit=carol#p69400

The loop outcome is always going to be determined by the fly leg momentum at loop formation and not by some static measure of arc.

Regards

Vince

[nicholasfmoore]

My roll cast not the best, it was filmed as i was walking back to the car!

[Paul Arden]

Hi Macauley,

The reason for the wide loop on the final cast is because when the acceleration is started early the line is directed upwards. I agree with Bernd and do not consider the Casting Stroke to begin at RSP0 but instead when the line is being “actively” accelerated. In the case of what you call “Creep” and I would call “Forward Drift” you are rotating the rod forward so that when the power is applied it directs the flyleg (in this case) at an angle directed downwards.

I agree with your original premise that simply stopping to the rod at a higher position is not the difference between wide and narrow loops. Of course when teaching beginners it can get results.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

I agree with your original premise that simply stopping to the rod at a higher position is not the difference between wide and narrow loops. Of course when teaching beginners it can get results.

Hi Paul,
do you disagree with those saying: small arc = tight overall loop and wide arc = wider overall loop?
No need to tell arc size is adjusted on both sides, thus stop being one side to adjust.
We agreed Vic Knight his roll cast to present tightest loops we had seen. How did he do it?
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

do you disagree with those saying: small arc = tight overall loop and wide arc = wider overall loop?

Yes because I can make both wide and narrow loops using the same arc.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

do you disagree with those saying: small arc = tight overall loop and wide arc = wider overall loop?

Yes because I can make both wide and narrow loops using the same arc.

That's interesting.
I use an arc 60 degrees. You have to use an arc 170 degrees. Carry about avg. let's say 9 to 10m.
You can shape similiar tight loops to mine?
Let's have a virtual competition.
One rule: No super artificial hand path allowed.

That aside, can you demo wide loops by using a very small arc?
Cheers
B

P.s.: No need to tell I can shape different sized loops within one size of arc as well. As can all my students.

[Bernd Ziesche]

We agreed Vic Knight his roll cast to present tightest loops we had seen. How did he do it?

So I give the answer away, for free.
High forward stop, very small arc, controlled extra high level of force application to get enough speed within that small arc.
No way you shape such overall tight loops in a wide arc.
You can cast further and create tight loops fronts, but you won't hit such tight overall loops.
Very clear to me.
Cheers
Bernd

P.s.: Vic could NOT shape wide loops in that small arc!

[Paul Arden]

I’m sure I can shape a straight fly leg with a variety of arcs. But the question was do wider arcs shape wider loops than narrower arcs? If you have a 60 degree arc and can shape both wide and narrow loops then I would think you can shape a narrower loop off a 65 degree arc than a 55 degree arc by making the same adjustments. Arc size is not the only thing we need to control and is just one variable. The others are how much and how the force is applied, hand path, tracking, amount of line to the apex of the D, the nature of the stop and all the features of the haul. It’s only if everything else is fixed does Arc-only determine the size of the loop.

Cheers, Paul