Single handed distance roll casting

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Paul,
Let's assume you are an examiner. The exam asks the candidate to demo a) tight loops and b) wide loops. Can be overhead casts or roll casts.
What adjustments do you want the candidate to present for changing back and forth between a) and b)?
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

The adjustment I want to see is Arc. I know that some examiners looks for a straight path and then a lower stop.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

I agree with your original premise that simply stopping to the rod at a higher position is not the difference between wide and narrow loops.

do you disagree with those saying: small arc = tight overall loop and wide arc = wider overall loop?

Yes because I can make both wide and narrow loops using the same arc.

Fine, so Macauley and you agree the size of arc and the stop position to be irrelevant to the size of loop.

Let's assume you are an examiner. The exam asks the candidate to demo a) tight loops and b) wide loops. Can be overhead casts or roll casts.
What adjustments do you want the candidate to present for changing back and forth between a) and b)?

The adjustment I want to see is Arc. I know that some examiners looks for a straight path and then a lower stop.

Since the size of arc is irrelevant to the size of loop (as Macauley worked out and you agree on) why on earth you want to see adjustments in the size of arc?

Makes zero sense to me. Why not leave it to the candidate which option he picks from these:

The others are how much and how the force is applied, hand path, tracking, amount of line to the apex of the D, the nature of the stop and all the features of the haul.

I want to see arc adjustments because that's the easiest one to use and it has huge impact on loop size in my book.
You still haven't explained me how you shape a tight loop in a 30 feet carry within a 170 degree arc or how you shape a wide loop within a very small arc.
I guess, that is, because I am spot-on!
Size of arc has significant impact on overall loop size.

No need to tell, that when I want to identify the impact of arc size to loop size, I try to keep all else as constant as possible. As I said it's an easy but yet proper teaching concept.

I am out here.
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

I want to see arc adjustments because I want to see arc adjustments. But to say wide arcs cause wide loops and narrow arcs cause narrow loops is simply incorrect because there are other mechanisms involved.

You still haven't explained me how you shape a tight loop in a 30 feet carry within a 170 degree arc or how you shape a wide loop within a very small arc.

As you know it not possible to compare these two extremes. I gave you the example that I could take your 60 degree arc, widen it and throw narrow loops and narrow it and throw wider loops, should I choose. You appeared to agree.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

But to say wide arcs cause wide loops and narrow arcs cause narrow loops is simply incorrect because there are other mechanisms involved.

I don't see why a pretty narrow arc wouldn't cause a narrow loop.

And I didn't say wide arcs cause wide loops, but

wide arc = wider overall loop?

Just an increase compared to smaller arcs.

I also said:

This does not mean, we can't shape loops, that at some point during unrolling I would call to be tight or even very tight loops, using wide arcs.

I measured the widest arc in Macauley's video for the one wide loop roll cast. Why is that?
Cheers
B

[Torsten]

Hi,

the assessment of Macauley in post #510 looks correct to me. He has measured the angle between the two rod straight states (I agree). Just in my opinion "creep" can't exist for the static roll, because that's defined as motion during pause, while the line is unrolling. I think he is right, the shape of the loop in fly casting is not only influenced by the "static" angles but also by the angular and linear velocity, as well as force and torque.

Greetings,
Torsten

[Bernd Ziesche]

the assessment of Macauley in post #510 looks correct to me. He has measured the angle between the two rod straight states (I agree).

Hi Torsten,
In wind I keep my tip on the water behind me until I quickly lift it and then fire off the roll cast, starting to accelerate at around 1. I guess that is a 180 degree arc then for you.
Definitions are free to everyone.
Yours doesn't match Macauley's though. He calls that early slow movement until 12 to be creep.
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

According to the SL definitions Creep can exist on the Roll Cast.

Creep: Unintentional movement of the rod in the direction of the next Casting Stroke.
Creep is a persistent casting fault where the rod is unintentionally moved so the Casting Arc and/or Casting Stroke Length of that cast are reduced.

But I wouldn’t call this Creep in Macauley’s case. I would call it Drift

Hi Bernd,

If we have a fixed arc say 70 degrees and make speed adjustments within this arc the loops will be open for low speeds and tighter for high speeds. Using your way of thinking one might argue therefore that low speed creates open loops and high speed creates tight loops.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

If we have a fixed arc say 70 degrees and make speed adjustments within this arc the loops will be open for low speeds and tighter for high speeds. Using your way of thinking one might argue therefore that low speed creates open loops and high speed creates tight loops.

Hi Paul,
That would not be my conclusion.
I can use a very small arc and no matter if I use more or less line speed, the loop will be what I call tight. I don't see how you create a wide loop in a very small arc.
Using a wide arc I don't see how you create a tight loop for a short to medium line length. High speed doesn't help. You can combine a longer stroke and a wide arc to have longer carries go thru a morphing loop starting wide and ending tight like we do in the bouncing bomb casts.
I agree, that for a given size of 70 degree arc, you can vary the size of loop a bit by adjusting force application. Not much in my opinion.
The impact of the size of arc to loop size is far bigger!
Carry 30 feet of line a) classic 120 degree arc and b) 60 degree arc. Then try to achieve the same changes in loop size within a 90 degree arc by varying force application (line speed). Won't work according to my experience. Not even close.
Adjusting the size of arc to me is a major tool to match loop size. And I assume, that's why as an examiner you want to see changes in the size of arc in the first place, when going from tight to wide loops and back.
You get a student coming with 9:30 to 2:30 arcs wanting to get tighter loops. First thing you teach him, is shortening the arc and he is happy. You wouldn't teach more line speed since he most likely uses too much anyway.
Cheers
Bernd

[Paul Arden]

Of course it’s a major tool. But you can’t simply say that wide arcs result in wide loops and narrow arcs result in narrow loops, because you can vary loop size within a given arc. Variable arc is just one component to controlling loop size. What matters is tip path. Tip path during acceleration controls the shape of the fly leg and tip path during deceleration controls the rod leg.

Cheers, Paul