Teaching Spey

[Morsie]

Great stuff Will thanks for your insight. Such a big difference between running water and stillwater and how they affect the lift as well. Fair to say "It all starts at the beginning".........

[jarmo]

Greetings all!

One was the sweep on the single spey. The few books and fewer video disks at that time could not agree on whether to dip or not.

The Sweep is indeed a problemchild of the single spey. That litterature can't agree is nothing new, and that wether or not you should dip depends on several things too, doesn't help

In general I dip; one case where I have to dip is a high lift: an incline sweep dictates that I must dip before sweeping in earnest. I lift high quite often, because what got me interested in fly casting in the first place was the challenge in DH casting. In practice this challenge meant longer lines (than I could handle with ease), sometimes accompanied by (unrealistic) sinking tips.

(I got interested in SH casting much later.)

I find the ability to start with a high lift most useful in turbulent rivers: a high lift, combined with the crescent lift, allows me to start a spey cast with an initial line layout that is far from optimal. No need to shorten the line, no need to straighten the line.

If there’s a single thing I’d focus on for all Spey casts, whether SH or DH, I’m going for a clean lift.

The lift is certainly a game changer.

One thing I like about Perry poke as a teaching tool is the ability to ignore the lift at that point. Yes, you have to somehow hustle the tip of the line to a reasonable position, but those moves can be far from anything clean.

What I have really enjoyed about training in stillwater is the exploration of lifting and sweeping that the conditions require. When the wind is blowing, from different directions, and the waves pick up, the layout of the line deteriorates quickly, and the conditions are perfect for a challenge. I have learned that I can get away with a much less complete lift than I would have thought possible, by employing a very strong but clean sweep. I have also learned to cope with extremely high lifts.

PS. Not related to this topic, but I want to share my good mood. For 18 months, I have suffered from an indeterminate shoulder pain, and it has kept me from casting as much as I would have wanted. This week I doled out the required money for the MRI and its analysis: no damages, but a structural issue. For a random patient, there is a 50% chance that physiotherapy will solve the issue: for a training nut like me the percentage has to be higher. If fysio doesn’t work, then it’s just sawing off a bit of bone.

[Paul Arden]

Mate I hope the physio works!! I agree on dipping. I’m a dipper and accelerator. I want to sweep fast from low to the water to form the V-loop. You can’t do that after picking up any significant length of line. However….

Beginners I don’t teach that. I teach lift, flat to shoulder and up, or… constantly rising. I’m happy to teach both from the get-go. Principally because it gets them looking at how the anchor forms.

I do teach people to dip but I think that’s higher up the ladder. 90 degree Single Spey? They must dip for a decent anchor. Otherwise the anchor is the fly

Cheers, Paul

[Morsie]

Good luck with the shoulder Jarmo. I avoid the dip, just another thing for me to get wrong in the "cascade of moves". I find that the first of the acceleration into the sweep flattens (slightly dips) the rod tip path for a meter or so, and that is sufficient to translate into a desirable anchor shape. 90 degree SS is a different animal altogether.

[Paul Arden]

That leads to the obvious question, Morsie, what about a 67.5 degree change?

[Lasse Karlsson]

90 degree Single Spey? They must dip for a decent anchor. Otherwise the anchor is the fly

Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul

Really? Why is that?

Like to know why you think my anchors indecent

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

If you have found another way then great.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Morsie,
One of the questions I was asked in my AAPGAI exam was: "What's the most common mistake in Spey casting?"
"A poor lift." was accepted to be the answer the examiners were looking for.
Will already made an excellent post about the lift. I agree on all points.

Lasse said the SS to be the most difficult cast. Before I learnt with the AAPGAI, I would have agreed. There I learnt to use a higher lift followed by dipping and the final rise into the stop. That change made this cast far more easy to me. Too small lift, no dip and anchor placemeant gets so dependant on level of force application. That always was tough for beginners.

In my first or second WC I asked several DH experts why the SS was picked by everyone and not a Snap Z or Snake Roll or any cast making for a better plane management of the D relative to target. The main answer was the SS being easier to be controlled. Anyway that seems to have changed now. Still I don't see the Snap Z, which to me is the best, but the Snake seems to be favored now.

In the double Spey I find the positioning of the line in the first lay relative to rod tip position for the next sweep into the D (to avoid the bloody O for example) most challenging. A while ago I asked Lee, if he had a perfect tool for adjustment here, but he hadn't either. Rod angle in the first sweep is my tool here though.
Regards
Bernd

[Lasse Karlsson]

Lasse said the SS to be the most difficult cast. Before I learnt with the AAPGAI, I would have agreed. There I learnt to use a higher lift followed by dipping and the final rise into the stop. That change made this cast far more easy to me. Too small lift, no dip and anchor placemeant gets so dependant on level of force application. That always was tough for beginners.

In my first or second WC I asked several DH experts why the SS was picked by everyone and not a Snap Z or Snake Roll or any cast making for a better plane management of the D relative to target. The main answer was the SS being easier to be controlled. Anyway that seems to have changed now. Still I don't see the Snap Z, which to me is the best, but the Snake seems to be favored now.

Regards
Bernd

Correction, I said the hardest, it's the only one where you are commited from the get go, when you start you have to go all the way. Snakeroll are similar but a easier movement pattern to learn.

Haven't seen anyone use a snakeroll in the WC, and I've been to all of them?

Cheers
Lasse

[Bernd Ziesche]

Haven't seen anyone use a snakeroll in the WC, and I've been to all of them?

Hi Lasse,
oh, my mistake then. Getting old maybe. Well, then I must have mixed that with some of the vids from the Speyarama, maybe. I remember it was Tommy Aarkvisla hitting (I think) 184 feet with a Snake roll cast. It was in the tournament.

Snake vs. SS I find, that on the Snake some clients have quite a bit of fear to have their fly hit the tip as soon as the real fly is on. That's much less of a problem with the SS. Fishing wise I don't see much Snake roll casts. SS far more often.
I don't disagree with your point though. What stance you recommend for the SS (avg. student)?
Cheers
B