Teaching tip path in DH

[James9118]

Here's some video for your analysis, overhead casting with a double hander. Two videos of Tracy (a before and after some tips and guidance) plus one of myself. Now Tracy and I produce very, very different loop shapes (especially in her 'before' video), so I'm interested to see if you can tell why from the tip path:

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/790053889

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/790055490

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/790057194

Cheers, James

[John Waters]

Hi James,

Focus on the arm extension position of both arms and the angle the rod is on in the vertical plane at line release. They are the key determinants of two handed casting distance performance.

I might not pass an exam but I can now add an emoji.

John

[Morsie]

Tracy's first back cast is not ideal (wide, with low energy and is caught by the wind) then it's a series of catch up strokes to regain tension. Her second cast is "cleaner" but I would say the lift is too fast. Your tip path (stroke) is far longer, as a result of your open stance, which allows you to watch it.

How do you go casting on the other side of your body and watching?

Morsie

[Morsie]

I'll just add that in relation to tip path (and I can't see this, nor do I know the rod (looks bloody stiff) or how many grains the line is) but the higher energy input you have is probably bending it deeper over that longer stroke, while Tracy's narrower arc is probably doming slightly, lots of dangle there.

[James9118]

Thanks John - I'll work on that.

Morsie - it's my S55 competition outfit. The rod perhaps isn't as stiff as you think but it is very fast and tippy, unlike a conventional Spey casting outfit. The line is 55 grams or ~850 gr. I only cast this overhead in competition (I've never fished with a double hander) so I've never practiced on my other side.

I agree, on Tracy's first cast she has very little line speed and a loop (on the bc) you could drive a double decker bus through.

Cheers, James

[Bernd Ziesche]

Now Tracy and I produce very, very different loop shapes (especially in her 'before' video), so I'm interested to see if you can tell why from the tip path:

Hi James,
For a proper tip path analyses I would want to download those videos and watch frame by frame on my bigger laptop screen. Having a quick go on my smartphone watching the 2 of you instead:
You were using a longer and more horizontal stroke and positioning the rotation towards the end, while Tracy used the shorter stroke and pulled the rod more down in the fc. In the second video Tracy pulled little less down. Tracy adds drift in her bc post a higher stop position compared to yours mostly without drift.
You probably add higher force application. In terms of distance I expect you cast further.
In terms of loop shape, in the bc I wouldn't be surprised, if Tracy has pretty tight loops. Looking at her first video, I'd expect a dangling end (depending on line length, too of course), because due to the tip drop by drifting, her tip will rise at the initial rotation in the fc (angle of dangle). But this was less in the second video. Forward stop positions are more similiar. I expect you might have a little tighter loop based on the level of force application and the final height of your hand positions. But Tracy improved in the second video.
Did Tracy play with drift and lift in her bc?
So, how do your loops differ?
Cheers
Bernd

[Bernd Ziesche]

I agree, on Tracy's first cast she has very little line speed and a loop (on the bc) you could drive a double decker bus through.

Oh, I did not realize the line speed being very low for Tracy. Of course for this I need to know how long the head is? I'd recommend to focus on pushing out the lower hand more in the bc. There's room to increase speed, when needed for a long head. Tracy seems to yet make little use of the lower hand in the bc. For a short head I'd think like more bottom hand, but the less top hand. For a long head more bottom hand and the upper hand seems ok. For the long head a wider arc then might be necessary for Tracy. Your arc is clearly bigger.

How do you see the use of your bottom hand, James?
Looks to me, you mainly pull the upper hand as well.
Cheers
B

[Bernd Ziesche]

For teaching to further use the bottom hand I sometimes use a small tool:

"Make use of the pin on reel back and forth."

That has worked immense fast for me many times.
Regards
B

[Morsie]

Just on Tracey's tip path on that first pick up and backcast - its one continuous curve hence that bc loop. Suggest she try lifting smoothly and steadily to a start point ie. approx 10 o'clock, then accelerate straight back. Lift should be fast enough to not allow a sag to develop, and slow enough to be distinct from the bc. I treat it as a separate move. First there's the lift and then there's the bc. I find it helps to identify these as two parts of forming the bc loop.

For teaching to further use the bottom hand I sometimes use a small tool:

Handy.

Do you have a gadget for stopping pushing over with the top hand?

[John Waters]

Hi James,

I don't look at tip path, can't see it anyway with a 5.2m rod. Focus on your hand path, that is much more productive and informative than tip path. Looking at the three videos, may I suggest you are both leading with your rod and not your body. The more you do that, the more your technique is based on pushing. Either a long hand path or short hand path can result in you pushing the rod. The key is the relationship of the hand or hands, to the shoulder. Just like single handed casting, the more you cast over the shoulder (not in front of, or besides the shoulder), with a definite lag of the rod hand or hands during the forward stroke, the more your stroke will be based on pulling technique and that always delivers optimal distance performance.

John