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Paul and Nick

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Stoatstail50
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Re: Paul and Nick

#181

Post by Stoatstail50 »


It would also be useful to talk about our experiences with different approaches.
I don’t think I agree Paul. There are very few opportunities for instructors to measure whether they’ve actually taught somebody something or not. By that I mean whether there’s been a permanent change in behaviour. It’s rare for most instructors to get a long view of the outcome of a lesson and so the chances for an objective assessment of one method over another is extremely limited. This is less evident in other disciplines where study has been extensive but in casting there is zero research so we rely on anecdotal evidence rather than good data.

Lastly, objective assessment of instructor performance depends on instructors being capable of critical analysis of their own methodologies and reviewing potential alternative strategies. That simply doesn’t happen atm. Which is a great pity, but hey ho …on we go 🙂
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Re: Paul and Nick

#182

Post by Paul Arden »

Thanks Tom!!
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Re: Paul and Nick

#183

Post by Paul Arden »

I agree that learning and retention are two different things Mark. I think you are concerned that your students forget but have no knowledge of the matter. I’ve become much better at following them up later on. Anyway I now know that what I teach is very effective at lasting changes. Prior to this I agree, sometimes you don’t know. Although I’ve always had some long term students in the comp side of things. Nowadays I book six month courses so I get to see what’s going on. My favourite students rebook and drop in regularly :D
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Re: Paul and Nick

#184

Post by Paul Arden »

I think that would be an interesting topic. How to reinforce a change? For me I see two separate things here. The change, which might be an epiphany moment. And the reinforcement, which might for example be drills, or cues provided by the student. Old way/new way is another one. Ideally we use several. In fact ideally we create a drill that allows them to go forward from there. Anyway I always take a long term view even with a short term student.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Paul and Nick

#185

Post by Stoatstail50 »

I agree that learning and retention are two different things Mark.
I'd be quite surprised if that what I said, retention testing is a pretty common way of checking learning has taken place, they're very closely linked. Transferability, that is the capacity of a learner to apply what they've learned to new challenges, is also a mechanism for checking learning has actually happened. Performance during a lesson and retained learning, however, are very often different, hence the question in the other thread.

It is not safe to assume that because someone can perform a particular cast with instructor feedback in a lesson has actually "learned" how to do it. This means that drills that promote rapid improvements in performance in a lesson may not be promoting retention quite as well. Clearly, as we've discussed previously, there are many factors that are going to influence how an instructor is going to teach but the methods that we employ, whoever we teach, should be directed to maximising retention and transfer. This means, even though it is probably counter-intuitive, that methods that deliver fast results but depend on instructor feedback or intervention to work are going to be less effective than slower methods which rely more on the caster using independent feedback to work.

This often means that an instructor has to teach a caster how to engage with the feedback available to them. To do this effectively both the caster and the instructor have to be able to describe, observe and react to the same things. The instructor is at a huge advantage as you have pointed out in that they already know where to look and collect a huge amount of information from places where the caster themselves cannot look, ie their own body motion. However, as a very basic rule of thumb, if the caster can't use it for feedback purposes, it's probably best not to draw attention to it.
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Re: Paul and Nick

#186

Post by Paul Arden »

Totally agree Mark. Excellent post.

This is why I highlight that it’s best for the student to come up with analogies of their own (and feels :p) so that it’s a) more memorable, b) pertinent to them and c) just the mental process of working this out helps anchor it.

It’s also a great tool for acquiring analogies that you can use on others. More tools in your tool box.

The big question of course, is will they practise the drill/s to reinforce what they managed to do in 15-60mins, or will they just go fishing? Because if they don’t practise the drills then for me it’s a waste of time :D

For every hour of lesson they should have 5-10 hours of homework. That’s where the retention happens and indeed often breakthroughs occur too. Sometimes that 5-10 hours is in fact 20 hours.

Otherwise it’s all just day-trippers!

Right, must cook, must proof-read.

Cheers! Paul
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Re: Paul and Nick

#187

Post by John Waters »

John Waters wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:42 am
NM wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:53 pm John,
Yes the relative line density is an important aspect when moving from T38 to the 27 gram Sea Trout floating line (ST27) event and back again. I am just back from a longer indoor Casting tournament and practice session casting the T38 for the first time in a long time. The change from ST27, which is what I mainly have been since I returned to competition casting, was initially quite difficult. Interestingly, I ended the day with a ST27 session, and I was really struggling for the first couple of casts. Everything felt so much lighter and softer than just a couple of days ago. Wide open loops and having a hard time timing my power input and rod turnover. Nothing to do with my ST27 technique not being robust I think and everything to do with the feel, and it I think it is about more than just the shoulder rotation. Things changed quite radically after the few first casts and I was then able to achieve much higher hand speed than before because of better layback. Everything feels quite differently, and better, because of that. :D

And yes, I agree, there’s no visual or external cues for improving layback. I have been practicing it while working on strengthening my throwing muscles by casting (FC only) against the resistance of a rubber band. Quite effective for developing the feel and right sequencing. :pirate:

Nils
Hi Nils,

Exactly, I have Heinz Marie-Hengse visiting me for 3 weeks later this month. Whilst Heinz does a lot of sea trout fishing, he has not cast the competition 5 MED or 27 gram gear we use in the events. It will be interesting to discuss what he feels in his first sessions and what loops shapes he generates over a 3 week training. Researchers use other terms when discussing rotation but layback is a great description. I think it will become a far more common term in fly casting in the future. It's great that you are using it and more importantly, extending it. :D

Sweden and Norway must be congratulated on the data based, research driven fly casting programs being developed. I envy you.

John
Hi Nils,

Just got back from a training session for Sea Trout distance with Heinz and it was the first time he had used the light gear. His first reaction was "I have no feeling" during the forward cast. As you know, you feel the line tension before you see the effect of line stretch/tension before the loop forms. At the end of the day his loops were fast and narrow, just like his 38gram loops but it took many casts. Heinz watches the backcast but "feels" the tension of the stretched fly line and backing in his hauling hand on the delivery cast. I'll see how it goes over next few weeks.

John
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Re: Paul and Nick

#188

Post by NM »

John Waters wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:59 am
John Waters wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:42 am
NM wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:53 pm John,
Yes the relative line density is an important aspect when moving from T38 to the 27 gram Sea Trout floating line (ST27) event and back again. I am just back from a longer indoor Casting tournament and practice session casting the T38 for the first time in a long time. The change from ST27, which is what I mainly have been since I returned to competition casting, was initially quite difficult. Interestingly, I ended the day with a ST27 session, and I was really struggling for the first couple of casts. Everything felt so much lighter and softer than just a couple of days ago. Wide open loops and having a hard time timing my power input and rod turnover. Nothing to do with my ST27 technique not being robust I think and everything to do with the feel, and it I think it is about more than just the shoulder rotation. Things changed quite radically after the few first casts and I was then able to achieve much higher hand speed than before because of better layback. Everything feels quite differently, and better, because of that. :D

And yes, I agree, there’s no visual or external cues for improving layback. I have been practicing it while working on strengthening my throwing muscles by casting (FC only) against the resistance of a rubber band. Quite effective for developing the feel and right sequencing. :pirate:

Nils
Hi Nils,

Exactly, I have Heinz Marie-Hengse visiting me for 3 weeks later this month. Whilst Heinz does a lot of sea trout fishing, he has not cast the competition 5 MED or 27 gram gear we use in the events. It will be interesting to discuss what he feels in his first sessions and what loops shapes he generates over a 3 week training. Researchers use other terms when discussing rotation but layback is a great description. I think it will become a far more common term in fly casting in the future. It's great that you are using it and more importantly, extending it. :D

Sweden and Norway must be congratulated on the data based, research driven fly casting programs being developed. I envy you.

John
Hi Nils,

Just got back from a training session for Sea Trout distance with Heinz and it was the first time he had used the light gear. His first reaction was "I have no feeling" during the forward cast. As you know, you feel the line tension before you see the effect of line stretch/tension before the loop forms. At the end of the day his loops were fast and narrow, just like his 38gram loops but it took many casts. Heinz watches the backcast but "feels" the tension of the stretched fly line and backing in his hauling hand on the delivery cast. I'll see how it goes over next few weeks.

John
It is fascinating how much “feel” matter, isn’t it John. :) The only real difference between casting the T38 and the ST27 is line weight and more importantly line density. The casting technique is basically the same, and for some the rod may also be the same or almost the same (I use both my T36 rod and my T38 rod for ST27), and still world class casters struggle adopting to the ST27 after a life time of T38 casting. Could you tell what he had to adjust by looking at his first ST27 casts? I bet you couldn’t. I don’t think I can tell what changes I made during that training session. It is all about feel and subconscious micro adjustments.

Nils
John Waters
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Re: Paul and Nick

#189

Post by John Waters »

NM wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:06 pm
John Waters wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:59 am
John Waters wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:42 am

Hi Nils,

Exactly, I have Heinz Marie-Hengse visiting me for 3 weeks later this month. Whilst Heinz does a lot of sea trout fishing, he has not cast the competition 5 MED or 27 gram gear we use in the events. It will be interesting to discuss what he feels in his first sessions and what loops shapes he generates over a 3 week training. Researchers use other terms when discussing rotation but layback is a great description. I think it will become a far more common term in fly casting in the future. It's great that you are using it and more importantly, extending it. :D

Sweden and Norway must be congratulated on the data based, research driven fly casting programs being developed. I envy you.

John
Hi Nils,

Just got back from a training session for Sea Trout distance with Heinz and it was the first time he had used the light gear. His first reaction was "I have no feeling" during the forward cast. As you know, you feel the line tension before you see the effect of line stretch/tension before the loop forms. At the end of the day his loops were fast and narrow, just like his 38gram loops but it took many casts. Heinz watches the backcast but "feels" the tension of the stretched fly line and backing in his hauling hand on the delivery cast. I'll see how it goes over next few weeks.

John
It is fascinating how much “feel” matter, isn’t it John. :) The only real difference between casting the T38 and the ST27 is line weight and more importantly line density. The casting technique is basically the same, and for some the rod may also be the same or almost the same (I use both my T36 rod and my T38 rod for ST27), and still world class casters struggle adopting to the ST27 after a life time of T38 casting. Could you tell what he had to adjust by looking at his first ST27 casts? I bet you couldn’t. I don’t think I can tell what changes I made during that training session. It is all about feel and subconscious micro adjustments.

Nils
Hi Nils,

IMHO the world of fly casting instruction has not focused on the correct meaning of "feel". The focus should be on feeling the stretch and release of specific segments of the body that is a foundation of other throwing and hitting sports. It is so obvious if separation becomes the focus of the casting movement.

I noticed a change in shoulder rotation, but have said that before. It's simply cause and effect, trying to extend the shoulder rotation range if the shoulder is not prepared just opens the torso, causes sag, lost tension on the backcast and yes, loss of feel in the haul hand on the delivery cast. Fix the shoulder and everything falls into place, just like it does in all other throwing sports.

Not rocket science, it's just an increased movement range and the outcome that automatically produces - increased hand speed.

John
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Re: Paul and Nick

#190

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo »

John Waters wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:29 am

I noticed a change in shoulder rotation, but have said that before. It's simply cause and effect, trying to extend the shoulder rotation range if the shoulder is not prepared just opens the torso, causes sag, lost tension on the backcast and yes, loss of feel in the haul hand on the delivery cast. Fix the shoulder and everything falls into place, just like it does in all other throwing sports.

Not rocket science, it's just an increased movement range and the outcome that automatically produces - increased hand speed.

John
John,

Can you be more specific about that rotation? I Googled shoulder rotation and there are like 4 different ways to rotate the joint, and the shoulders can rotate in the upper torso too.

Which are you referring to?

Thanks!
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