Paul and Nick

[Stoatstail50]

Unfortunately Niks, I think the concept of feel as a teaching device for relative novices and intermediate casters is second only behind big spring theory as a retarding influence on their learning.

The sensory devices that work for experts are counterproductive at the other end of the learning continuum. They’re conditioned to seek this elusive concept of feel but I want my casters to learn to look, to connect what they see with what they do. This means concentrating their attention on vision and external sources of sensory information to the exclusion of everything else. One thing to think about at a time. There is a neat Einstein quote on this that I can’t remember

I know that as they develop their casting skills they will also develop their proprioceptive and kinaesthetic awareness, these things go hand in hand. It is totally unnecessary to direct their attention to it at this stage because, eventually, they will use it automatically just as you did to change from a 27 to a 38 g head.

This idea of feel is why we have serried ranks of people staring into space struggling to feel their bc within 5 minutes of lesson 1 This is what the concept of feel has done for beginners…”don’t look…feel” it is completely about face in my opinion and I’m genuinely shocked at how few experienced instructors seem to agree.

[Stoatstail50]

Nils not Niks…spell check…my apologies.

“ everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler” Einstein.

Simple, easy to understand objectives, where achievement is independently verifiable by the caster. That’s all I want to deliver because it’s all they need in order to learn.

[VGB]

Hi Nils

And yes, I agree, there’s no visual or external cues for improving layback. I have been practicing it while working on strengthening my throwing muscles by casting (FC only) against the resistance of a rubber band. Quite effective for developing the feel and right sequencing.

I’ve never cast an ST27, what size rubber band do I need to learn to cast it before I compete at BFCC?

Jason is using sound images like uuUuUUPP smooooOTH to plant the right feel image in the students’ heads.

In my head Up is a direction and directly opposes gravity, smooth is a vague rate of acceleration. What’s the name of the cast this teaches?

Observing the line roll out can tell you a lot if things of what’s right or wrong in your casting stroke. That can provide useful feedback that you can use to try to correct the next cast if you have sufficient understanding of the cause-and-effect relationship of what you are seeing. That require a degree of expertise, though, that I assume many of your students do not have.

In a lesson, how do you describe the feel such that a student can separate the varying momentum of the line from the varying swingweight of the rod and start the next stroke at the right time? Do you include the adjustments in this description for the effects of wind or tracking errors on the feel?

Also, it is sometimes useful to both use an internal and an external cue for fixing an issue. There is a great example of that from fixing the coming-over-the-top problem in golf in this one. https://www.mytpi.com/articles/swing/sa ... effect.%22 I have used both for my own golf practice.

Did you read this part of the article?

But which should we choose? Wulf’s research showed that external focus improves both transfer and retention. In addition, external cues were also effective whether used periodically or for each and every rep or swing. This means novices, who may require more feedback, can benefit just the same as pros, which may require less. For beginners, a logical transfer from internal to external may help them grasp the movement better.

Reacting to after-the fact information such as the loop doesn’t help us fix the issue in real time. That may require focusing on and understanding feel.

Or it may not. If I feel that I have tailed, can I stop the tail ever occurring? Please can you tell me how to understand feel? I’ve watched videos of casts, whilst looking at the associated strain gauge data and I cannot separate the variables in a meaningful way that I can teach.

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

Reacting to after-the fact information such as the loop doesn’t help us fix the issue in real time. That may require focusing on and understanding feel. As explained in this excellent article:

https://coachesinsider.com/track-x-coun ... ng-events/
Understanding the appearance of the desired patterns of movement is essential to effective cuing. Understanding cause-effect relationships raises our level of coaching effectiveness. However, the most advanced and effective cuing takes into account the sensations and feelings the athlete experiences as the event is performed. …. The best cuing practices take in information based on how it looks to the coach and translate it into how it feels to the athlete.

Hi Nils

In your quote, why did you cut out the following:

Also, there is always a delay in human proprioceptive feedback. Sensations are relayed to the brain for processing in a delayed manner, meaning that a tenth of second or so passes between the time a position is achieved and the brain perceives it. This results in things feeling very different to the athlete than they might appear on video.

I cannot reconcile that with your statement:

Reacting to after-the fact information such as the loop doesn’t help us fix the issue in real time. That may require focusing on and understanding feel.

The delay won’t be limited to a 10th of a second because you have still to decide on an action and enact it. I don’t believe there’s a real time fix. Additionally, if you are coaching during the action, you may be a part of the problem because you are interfering with the casters focus of attention, as explained in the paragraph following your quote:

For example, at the end of the initial push off from a start, you see an athlete's body aligned in a straight line, from the head, through the torso and push off leg, to the toe. We all understand the importance of this position. However, in a good start, you never stop or rest in this position. To ask an athlete to "feel" this straight-line position would interrupt the flow of the movement and by the time the athlete achieves the position, the message is sent to the brain, and the position is perceived, the subsequent movements are already far too late and excessive backside mechanics result.

I agree with this part of the article:

Performance is about movement, not positions. Even the most critical positions an athlete must attain in performance last hundredths of a second, and athletes must be able to move fluidly into and beyond these positions. In many cases, emphasis on a position disrupts the entire flow of the movement.

By the time I’d finished the article, it seemed to me that it was promoting effective cueing not feel.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

I don’t think it works like that Mark. Otherwise you could just stand next to someone, cast together and job done.

OK…my caster is already working with the line up. They’re attempting to control loop shapes. It’s not always working as they expect. This is totally normal. What is also totally normal is that they start to tense up. This is “freezing” as they try to solve the problem and it’s highly predictable.

My question to you is why, at this point, would I use synchronised movement in the lesson? I don’t have a rod in my hand, nothing, not even a parsnip. I’m doing the hippy hippy shake to one side and they do it too…So why do I do it. ?

Yes that moves to external focus and is an excellent example of mirroring. But that’s not I was discussing with Vince. I was looking for external cues for complex sequential movements.

If you are teaching me, I stand next to you and we pantomime together, I study your movement as well as my own to see that they match. Consequently I am also analysing what I am doing. You can see this in a lesson because the student not only copies you but then tries it alone and they are analysing their movement. That’s internal.

You must have had this regularly. They copy you and then they do it alone. And usually in slow motion. Often they watch their arm.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Bike ride now. I was wondering if you could give a lesson without watching the loops?

I could but I’d be short changing the student. They may only be able to cast with my help and in the benign conditions of the lesson, if they couldn’t react to changes in the “goal relevant outcome”. If the student already has that capability then we are only talking about a refinement of existing skills and I’d be having a relaxing day at the office

How about the other way, could you teach someone by only watching the loops?

[Paul Arden]

It is totally unnecessary to direct their attention to it at this stage because, eventually, they will use it automatically just as you did to change from a 27 to a 38 g head.

This is interesting because it’s not automatic. Every time we pick up a new outfit we need to dial it in. Of course the more familiar we are with the outfit the quicker this will be.

I don’t know what you change but the only way I can describe what I do is adjust my expected feel.

It’s a bit like picking up a drum of petrol. If it’s empty it almost flies through the roof. But I’m expecting it to be empty, and it’s not, then it hardly gets off the floor. That’s the difference between casting a 2WT and a 10WT.

We used to do this all the time in Sexyloops Shootouts. It’s takes some false casts to dial it in.

The most common distance error amongst top level casters is to “hit it too early”. And we know immediately when we have done this. We don’t need to see the loop going off into a tail.

Anyway since we all agree it’s both then we are all good

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

If you are teaching me, I stand next to you and we pantomime together, I study your movement as well as my own to see that they match. Consequently I am also analysing what I am doing. You can see this in a lesson because the student not only copies you but then tries it alone and they are analysing their movement. That’s internal.

You must have had this regularly. They copy you and then they do it alone. And usually in slow motion. Often they watch their arm.

You watch the movements Paul, the students eyes go to the line because we are drawn to motion. Just watch the audience at a demo, the heads are turning just like it’s Wimbledon.

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

How about the other way, could you teach someone by only watching the loops?

During the cast yes, the demo is internal to external as described by Nick Winkelman.

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

I don’t know what you change but the only way I can describe what I do is adjust my expected feel.

I wish I’d made it to your place, I could have blindfolded you, then handed you my whittled rod to see how you dialled it in.

The most common distance error amongst top level casters is to “hit it too early”. And we know immediately when we have done this. We don’t need to see the loop going off into a tail.

You are performing not learning.

From the Tech thread on loading:

The acceleration is not linear, but increasing. I cue the sight of the rod butt vertical or later for my rapid acceleration.

Feel, Internal or external?


Regards

Vince