Feelings in competitive sport

[Paul Arden]

We do not get into those sorts of extreme body positions when flycasting and we also don’t use the same application of force. Three-quarters of pitchers under the age of 18 report pain when throwing. It’s impossible to imagine a close to 60 year old being the best pitcher in the world, but we have certainly had that in flycasting. Tor was 58 I believe when he won the 5WT distance in the WCs and he’s been a threat every competition since. Mind you Tor is still built like a brick shit house and he will crush your hand when shaking it

I know I’ve written it earlier in this discussion. In distance casting we have a balance that we play with. On the one side we want high force. If you look at any throwing sport – javelin, baseball, how a quarterback throws – they have a movement that curves from in-behind, out, and then across the front of the body. This is how we produce our maximum throws. On the other side of the equation we have straight tracking. Perfectly straight tracking simply has less force input because this is not our optimal human throwing movement. Most of us balance somewhere between the two. If I look at Bernt, Tor, Mikael and Dmitri, IMO they vastly favour tracking. And these are some of the very best. If you put a rod in an elite baseball pitcher’s hand and ask them to throw it like they would pitch, it’s not going to feature as a long cast.

My maximum force is not a vertical rod. It’s certainly not a straight tracked hand path either. My maximum casting distance force application is not how I would throw a Molotov cocktail.

Similarities are important but the differences are too.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Perfectly straight tracking simply has less force input because this is not our optimal human throwing movement. Most of us balance somewhere between the two.

I agree with that and have referenced the speed-accuracy trade off and Fitts Law many times.

Similarities are important but the differences are too.

I also agree with that I would suggest applying a filter on what is read across from other sports. Some of the available on line material is quackery at best and occasionally downright dangerous.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi Paul,

Both the differences and similarities are are important in any movement pattern comparison across sports, but you can utilise the summation of forces like all other throwers do, and still move the hand/rod in a single plane. Rotation around a vertical line can deliver correct tracking in fly distance casting and high hand speed.

I've changed my view completely about fly distance casting technique. It's not the extreme arm position (external shoulder rotation) that we see in other sports that is focus, it is what the body does to achieve it that is important. I used to think optimal tracking could only result primarily from linear body motion in the direction of the loop, but do no longer. That curved arm path you refer to is follow-through around the blocking of the non throwing side of the body, it can be changed to a 170 type follow through for casting.

Fly distance casting is an interesting sport. We use the whole body but hand speed is the key objective in my opinion. Tracking is important but one aspect I find interesting is the different type of lower body patterns employed, none of which impact tracking.

John

[Paul Arden]

Totally agree that the focus is body first, John. There is another interesting separation too I think. If we are throwing a ball for example, we are looking to build maximum speed in throwing direction: the faster we move our hand, the faster we throw the ball.

We are not doing that in distance flycasting; instead we are rotating the rod butt. In other words we are applying torque. And, partly because of the bend in the rod, that torque is being applied later in the stroke than if we were releasing a thrown ball.

A javelin is thrown at a trajectory of 32-36 degrees. I aim at about 15 degrees above the horizontal in flycasting distance. In javelin the force is being applied to throw the object directly on the flight’s path. In flycasting however, we are rotating the rod butt to apply force. That’s a different force application. It’s later and it’s not straight to target; in our case it’s torque.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Hi Paul,

We do rotate the rod but is that different from a tennis player serving the ball? Both the fly distance cast and the tennis serve rotate the object held. In the tennis serve, rotational speed and trajectory/accuracy are the keys to success. Fly distance casting sport does not have the accuracy objective that tennis or baseball has. It is more like javelin, the accuracy requirement of is to land the fly/javelin in court only. Comparing the four sports, the accuracy requirement diminishes in casting sport and javelin and release speed becomes the predominant objective. The interesting thing about body rotation is that it can be used equally with a 15 degree launch angle or a 35 degree launch angle. We don't have to throw through the point like a javelin thrower but just as other throwers want to maximise their force summation through to their throwing hand, so do we. A male javelin thrower generates 20 plus metres per second hand speed in one step, with a release trajectory of 30 plus degrees. I suggest the same javelin thrower would achieve the same hand speed if his release trajectory was 15 degrees.

John

[Paul Arden]

Hi John,

I think the javelin throwers would generate even more hand speed if they rotated to a 15 degree trajectory, not less. However the difference is still there because they are applying force predominantly in the x-axis whereas we are applying force in the y. (That’s a very broad description and not to be taken too literally!!)

I do see the parallel to tennis. It’s just that our torque is applied later because the rod tip is way back!

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Fly distance casting sport does not have the accuracy objective that tennis or baseball has.

Just to clarify, the accuracy I was referring to was accuracy of movement

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0performed.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Ah yes I remember reading about Fitts’ law and found that very interesting. But I think that’s slightly different because that’s a trade off between speed and accuracy, within the same movement range. What we have here is a restricted movement range to shape a loop or even just the fly leg of the loop. And as a consequence of this movement restriction we can’t generate the same speed.

We also have to consider the haul as well. There are several parts to this. One is the obvious one, where we want to try to generate out most effective haul. Our max rod throwing speed body position may not be our max haul speed body position. But the other point is that the rod stroke directly increases the haul acceleration (separation of line hand from stripping guide) and this should be timed late in the stroke.

So there are a few things going on and we are really trying to balance them all together.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

What we have here is a restricted movement range to shape a loop or even just the fly leg of the loop. And as a consequence of this movement restriction we can’t generate the same speed.

If I have understood you correctly Paul, it is the same thing, Fitts law accounts for movement range. If you are talking about the difference between OSD and 170, then I take your point.

We also have to consider the haul as well. There are several parts to this. One is the obvious one, where we want to try to generate out most effective haul. Our max rod throwing speed body position may not be our max haul speed body position.

Asymmetrical hand movements is a whole different box of frogs. Rob Gray did a podcast on it and I think that the scientists haven’t entirely got their heads around it.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

It is interesting to compare fly distance casting sport with biomechanics and the accuracy of movement range and sequencing. A full body proximal to distal pattern as distinct from an upper body or an arm centred pattern facilitates the generation of maximum speed whilst achieving the accuracy and tracking objectives required i.e optimal loop shape and get the cast in court. That’s why a baseball pitcher can throw the ball over 100 mph, over a plate. The speed comes from the patterning, and the release point provides the accuracy. (Noting the curved hand path on the post release follow through you mentioned earlier Paul). Other throwers use their non throwing hand very specifically to optimise speed because it assists with blocking or braking shoulder rotation, and then driving energy into the throwing arm. You are correct Paul, the haul needs to happen just after that shoulder rotation block so the haul side elbow needs to be higher than is seen in other sports. That’s the only difference though. The non haul hand shoulder requires a slightly different blocking or braking pattern for casting and that is best achieved by the non haul side leg. In other sports the contralateral leg is also used but the sequence only differs in fly distance casting. Balancing movements is good but only if it does not limit hand speed.


John