Performance Outcomes

[VGB]

but in most cases we put the fish at a similar distance most of the time.

Who is this “we” Kemo Sabe? but I am often guilty of casting from too far, improving my casting is one of the root causes.

Line management is certainly easier with a short line (and most people fish too far, both rivers and stillwaters, but that’s another issue).

Line management becomes critical in fast water even with short lines. I’m still trying to work out good pocket water fishing lessons, teaching casting in isolation doesn’t work, you have to fish the drift and recover for the next shot. One of the engrained behaviours is letting go of the line as part of the cast. Taking a cast, control the drift and into the next cast is a heavy workload for students.

And to do that as a presentation cast takes a lot of training.

I think we’ll have to disagree on what constitutes a presentation cast. For me, any cast that is intended to catch fish by inducing a particular behaviour of the offered fly is a presentation cast.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Well I’m happy to disagree. What do you call the family of casts that control the line configuration as being something intentionally different than being a straight line from caster to fly, ie Mends, collapsed casts, over and underpowered curves, reaches, etc etc. ?

How about setting them up with a longish leader of 20’ and telling them to fish leader only? They need to fish the fly with the rod tip and a straight arm with minimum use of the line hand. It’s about line control and in this case that means keeping it mostly off the water. For this stuff the best way is to lead by example I think.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

What do you call the family of casts that control the line configuration as being something intentionally different than being a straight line from caster to fly

I would call both a gently unrolling overhead cast and a fly first cast presentation casts, even though the line layout is straight.

How about setting them up with a longish leader of 20’ and telling them to fish leader only?

Very few anglers have the ability to cast a dry with just 20ft of leader, even then it is not sufficiently accurate to put the fly in the pockets. Generally, the fly is coming downstream too fast for them to get the line off the water and the rise when it comes is very quick, you need to separate the hands quickly to set the hook.

For this stuff the best way is to lead by example I think.

. There’s very little on this stuff in the instructosphere, so I’m trying to reverse engineer how I got to where I am. It’s interesting and frustrating because you get few who persevere with it and most go back to short line nymphing because it gets quicker results.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Yes but you would also call any cast a presentation cast See I have four pillars; Accuracy, Distance, Presentations and Speys. Teaching the other three is certainly a different lesson to Presentation Casts & Mends. It’s something that we as FFers have that no other branch has; ie the ability to make a lure swim in a different direction than straight to us.

If they can’t cast a 20ft leader only then that’s why I would teach them to do this. That’s part of the control aspect we are looking for. For this type of fishing we want to keep as much of the line off the water as possible. That becomes even harder when it’s flyline.

The separation of hands on the strike depends at how well they are at controlling the amount of slack between the rod tip and fly.

Short line French Nymphing and pocket fishing is not too dissimilar IMO. There is certainly no flyline involved in FNing and we follow the fly with a straight rod arm.

Cheers,
Paul

[VGB]

Yes but you would also call any cast a presentation cast See I have four pillars; Accuracy, Distance, Presentations and Speys. Teaching the other three is certainly a different lesson to Presentation Casts & Mends.

Can you call it a presentation cast if you are trying to put the fly over the moon? It’s also possible to put your first level of taxonomy into fishing, teaching and competition. Once you get to a certain level of geekiness, casting becomes articulated stamp collecting

they can’t cast a 20ft leader only then that’s why I would teach them to do this.

Casting 20ft of leader with a bushy fly on the end accurately is a big ask for the majority of our community, it’s not a 5 minute teaching job like casting a French nymph set up.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

They don’t have to cast the whole 20’ leader, just leader. It’s a great way of teaching pull-back.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Leader lengths are very interesting by the way. I commonly hear people calling 14’ leaders “long”. I think it really depends on your fishing roots. When I first started teaching in the UK the recommended leader length was 1.5 times the rod length. But that would have been a short leader on the reservoirs. My standard 3 fly leader was 22’ and after reading an article at the age of 15 I remember trying to fish 35’ leaders off the bank with weighted cased Caddis and droppers.

I also remember trying a 22’ leader for Hairy in Tas, and he said he was casting but “the flies still hadn’t left the ground”

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

The aim of this type of presentation is to get the fly down first and as much line and leader off the water as possible, whilst the fly is hammering back towards you. Pull back would eat into your room for manoeuvre with taking line off the water as the fly is coming back and lifting into the fish. Running out of arm, or falling backwards over rocks is a common occurrence , a lot of people miss a lot of rises as well.

I think that talking about leader length without discussing the range you want to fish at is a bit misleading because the dynamic changes once you get the line in the air as well. Close range leader only or leader dominant dry fly fishing is difficult. Equally, I’m not sure that fishing a 20ft leader 70 ft away would be a bundle of fun either.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

20’ leaders at 70’+ is not a problem as long as you check the shoot. As I say it’s probably what you grow up doing and are used to.

Anyway a 70’ cast somewhere like this is a problem

15AC4627-3152-4D7B-935D-E6C2FD58EF9C.jpeg (166.54 KiB) Viewed 339 times

Me when I fish stuff like this I don’t lower the rod at the end of the cast, keep the arm raised and raise it further to keep the leader off the water. It’s really difficult to cast the fly and leader only without pullback. Like flicking paint off a brush.

From back in the day…

80B73EFD-217F-42F5-B736-6CA4341D9B8B.jpeg (25.54 KiB) Viewed 339 times

(Short 3 fly leader is for sinking lines, the longer one for floating lines).

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

2010 there was a lot less people who could throw 120’. In the heats it was constant drizzle & flat calm. A bit like how weather used to be in England before climate change.

Hi Paul,
Fair enough. So, can you link a current sheet of indoor (or no wind outdoor) results, where many participants hit 120+?
Cheers
B