Performance Outcomes

[VGB]

Hi Paul

For me, all fishing shots are presentation casts, you are looking for an intended outcome.

The interesting thing about distance numbers, which I know very well of course, is that you get an accurate snapshot of their casting ability, just by knowing what they are, and can offer what technical improvements to make to get to the next level.

8 years ago, I threw 96ft, what should I have done next?

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Well “presentation casts” for me means something more specific. NIck and I have done some videos on those steps. Which reminds me; we must do the next one

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Well “presentation casts” for me means something more specific.

The fish are always in a specific place?

NIck and I have done some videos on those steps.

Don’t remember hearing anything about every cast being a tail

[Lasse Karlsson]

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When is there ever zero wind?

Just back from Norway. 14 days trip and 10 days we head mirror flat surface (even in the ocean). Simply dead calm. Extremely unusual, yes. But happens. Anyway, just go indoors and there you have it. From what I saw Steve Rajeff is an absolute outstanding single handed distance caster. He doesn't drop much in comp. as he told me. Yet 120 (and slightly plus) feet was about his longest indoor casts while standing on a podest. Still this was a pretty stiff rod designed for distance casting.
Remove the podest, reduce stiffness a little and then show me all those who can beat him in such conditions. I put my money on Steve here, not on the other 100s.

My point is, that constant controlled 120' on a typical MED 5 fishing outfit is a hell of a mark. One that I am not sure to have seen anyone yet demo it to me. Instead I see top casters do quite some casts and then measure the one that went furthest, leaving aside all others.

Teaching results to me aren't about the one longest cast.
Cheers
B

Hi Bernd

Yup, and even with a mirror surface, there will be moving air. Just going indoors doesn't cut it, I must have cast in about 15 different size halls and air still moves. Having an overhead Ac blowing downwards is a killer... Last one was in a hall I had been doing daily demos on casting for a week, and then had a competition at the weekend. Had "no" problem getting 120 in practice over the week, on comp day, the AC was on and hitting 100 was almost impossible..

Yeah, Steve is good, and has what almost no other have, comp nerves from competiton for close to 50 years. Those 120's he did in BoTW was three casts and that's it. And it was an of the shelf 5 weight loomis he used, are you saying it was stiffer than the HT6? Are you also saying that stiffer rods throw further because they are better springs? Bernt's longest indoors cast was 41 something done with a noodle and the Rio comp line...
And yet, Steve didn't make the 5 weight final in Norway in 2010, and you didn't even need a 120 footer to get in there

Øvelse 2 – Ørret lengde Lengde Finale2 Finale1
Herrer:
1 Per Grønberg NOR 33 32,5 32,5
2 Ruairi Costello IRE 33 31,5 31,5
3 Sakari Siipilehto FIN 33 34 31,5
4 Paul Arden UK 34 28,5 30
5 Jan Vidar Josephsen NOR 36 26 29,5
6 Mikael Blomberg NOR 34 26 26,5
7 Ulrik Röijezon SWE 32,5
8 Steve Rajeff USA 32
9 Harald Økern Jensen NOR 32
10 Stein Grønberg NOR 32
11 Mathias Lilleheim NOR 31,5
12 Alexander Rybkin RUS 31,5
13 Ronny Landin SWE 31,5
14 Lasse Karlsson DEN 31
15 Johnny Smørsgaard NOR 31
16 Stefan Siikavaara FIN 30,5
17 Joonas Saarikko FIN 30
18 Vasilyi Olshannikov RUS 30
19 Fredrik Hedman SWE 30
20 Sergey Kluev RUS 30
21 Nicolai Eriksen DEN 30
22 Jarle Strandberg NOR 29,5
23 Vadim Utrobin RUS 29
24 Jonathan Tomlinson UK 27
25 Lauri Selenius FIN 25,5
26 Esa Raudsvirta SWE 24

Your point keeps changing to suit your agenda, and I love the "I haven't seen anyone yet demo it to me..." reminds me of "never seen anyone carry long without ticking" that went to " never seen anyone carry max without ticking" to realising they wheren't ticking but the dangle made a little snap around where the caster was standing.. There's also this one, interesting to see how much we have learned and moved us since, and how something stays the same http://sexyloops.co.uk/archivedboard/vi ... 893#p24893

Teaching results, to me, are based on the individual.

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

BOW was 3 or 4 casts. Two minute comps is usually 7 for me (I’m fast!). Most others seem to be less (more false casts/slower stripping). I don’t know how long BOW casts took but I still think it’s a harder format, for me at least. But maybe that’s because I’ve never trained for it.

“Presentation Casts” as a term I’ve always used to describe anything which is intentionally cast non straight from caster to fly. Curves/Reach/Collapsed/Mends and so on. As I’ve described many times, I see four cornerstones to flycasting; Accuracy, Distance, Presentation Casts and Speys.

Ironically perhaps, the main way to measure improvement in Presentation Casts is to measure the accuracy of fly and line positioning and to what distance the caster is capable of achieving this configuration. Better still I think would be a random test, although most river anglers tend to fish a fairly fixed distance from the fish or casting zone. Still; I like my students to be able to perform presentation casts at random distances with accurate fly and line placement. And just like Accuracy Targets, it really has to happen on the first cast, otherwise you end up in the trees

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

I really should have won 2010 but Stefan and I put some line dressing on mine and Sakari’s MEDs and neither of us could hold the line while hauling it took me a minute and a half to get the stuff off my fingers by which point the wind turned and blew on to our right shoulders

And then Jan and Mikael had a quartering headwind.

The lesson in that is don’t try things in the finals that you haven’t tried in practise!

[VGB]

“Presentation Casts” as a term I’ve always used to describe anything which is intentionally cast non straight from caster to fly. Curves/Reach/Collapsed/Mends and so on. As I’ve described many times, I see four cornerstones to flycasting; Accuracy, Distance, Presentation Casts and Speys.

In the assessment, a good reach is a straight line presentation. For fishing objectives, I like to be accurate presentations and want to be accurate at distance and will trade absolute distance for accuracy.

Better still I think would be a random test, although most river anglers tend to fish a fairly fixed distance from the fish or casting zone. Still; I like my students to be able to perform presentation casts at random distances with accurate fly and line placement. And just like Accuracy Targets, it really has to happen on the first cast, otherwise you end up in the trees

Not sure I agree with fixed fishing distances in rivers but otherwise I’m on the same page as you. I’ve been occasionally struggling with the yips recently with some presentations, water levels are very low and the fish are spooky.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

In the assessment, a good reach is a straight line presentation.

Yep that’s why I wrote straight from caster to fly, not rod tip to fly!

It depends how you are fishing the river of course, but in most cases we put the fish at a similar distance most of the time. Line management is certainly easier with a short line (and most people fish too far, both rivers and stillwaters, but that’s another issue).

I think that’s why people think they are very accurate. After a few casts they can probably put it on a leaf, and if that leaf is at their usual fishing distance this becomes relatively easy. The challenge is when it’s not in your comfort zone, and is either shorter or longer, and to do it first time.

And to do that as a presentation cast takes a lot of training. Most fisheries are quite forgiving. Particularly trout. But not all.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Yup, and even with a mirror surface, there will be moving air. Just going indoors doesn't cut it, I must have cast in about 15 different size halls and air still moves. Having an overhead Ac blowing downwards is a killer...

Hi Lasse,
Since the beginning we have talked about "no wind conditions" here on SL. It always was a common used term. Obviously we also had discussed these rare days when for reasons yet to be figured no one can cast 100' anymore. Having an AC pushing air down obviously is not what one was talking about when using the "no wind" term.

I would think 50 or 60 casting in that top bracket.

I am dead sure we can easily get that number to 50 or 60 between us

And yet, Steve didn't make the 5 weight final in Norway in 2010, and you didn't even need a 120 footer to get in there

Øvelse 2 – Ørret lengde Lengde Finale2 Finale1
Herrer:
1 Per Grønberg NOR 33 32,5 32,5
2 Ruairi Costello IRE 33 31,5 31,5
3 Sakari Siipilehto FIN 33 34 31,5
4 Paul Arden UK 34 28,5 30
5 Jan Vidar Josephsen NOR 36 26 29,5
6 Mikael Blomberg NOR 34 26 26,5
7 Ulrik Röijezon SWE 32,5
8 Steve Rajeff USA 32
9 Harald Økern Jensen NOR 32
10 Stein Grønberg NOR 32
11 Mathias Lilleheim NOR 31,5
12 Alexander Rybkin RUS 31,5
13 Ronny Landin SWE 31,5
14 Lasse Karlsson DEN 31
15 Johnny Smørsgaard NOR 31
16 Stefan Siikavaara FIN 30,5
17 Joonas Saarikko FIN 30
18 Vasilyi Olshannikov RUS 30
19 Fredrik Hedman SWE 30
20 Sergey Kluev RUS 30
21 Nicolai Eriksen DEN 30
22 Jarle Strandberg NOR 29,5
23 Vadim Utrobin RUS 29
24 Jonathan Tomlinson UK 27
25 Lauri Selenius FIN 25,5
26 Esa Raudsvirta SWE 24

Exactly my point. 120' obviously was out of reach for all those distance experts without tail wind in that day.
All I was saying was, great that you guys have so many students hitting 120'+ in no wind conditions.

I love the "I haven't seen anyone yet demo it to me..."
reminds me of "never seen anyone carry long without ticking" that went to " never seen anyone carry max without ticking" to realising they wheren't ticking but the dangle made a little snap around where the caster was standing..

According to my memory, I made a fair number of casting experts aware of that "ticking" (Paul was just one of them) and no one (also not on SL) could explain it or would disagree to tick. Then you offered a video of casting over water (proving not to tick). Still you couldn't explain the "sound", that we all had, either. Then I figured it, everyone agreed and of course I changed my explanation immediately saying "I was wrong". Something btw. I don't read often on SL. Since then we know to break the sound barrier at times within the dangle.

However I agree:

IMO the further you try to cast, the least consistent you are. Pushing to the max is borderline between tail and a slightly more open loop. That’s why you see a lot of tails in the WCs. I certainly don’t push like this when fishing.

One of the reasons I prefer talking about what distance I can demonstrate while performing a nice and not a shitty but lucky cast. A tailing cast doesn't count to me. That's opposite of what I teach and strive for myself.

And yes, Lasse, yet I didn't see anyone reproductable and within smooth nice loops hitting 120+ with what to me is a typical 5wt. fishing outfit. This has zero to do with changing my explanation for whatever when learning something new.

But hey, you guys are always welcome to change this.

I don't know what "a Loomis of the shelf" is. But my HT 6 is much stiffer as what I choosed to fish my MED5 2 weeks ago for XXL grayling (and trout) in Norway.

I think, Vince has made fair points about comp. on one hand and teaching on the other hand. Points, that I agree with.
Cheers
Bernd

P.s. No hard feelings here.

[Paul Arden]

2010 there was a lot less people who could throw 120’. In the heats it was constant drizzle & flat calm. A bit like how weather used to be in England before climate change.