Bruce Richards video

[John Waters]

Hi Brian,

Many similarities and some variations between fly distance casting and javelin. I've posted both here before so won't repeat each. Ditto my earlier comments with baseball, cricket, tennis and golf. You are correct, there is extensive convergence in javelin technique. Stretch and release, accelerate and brake, summation of forces are fundamental patterns used in all throwing and hitting sports. The greatest myth is that rotation of the body segments destroys tracking and hand speed opportunities get lost in the translate then rotate "essential" for fly casting. The only divergence in javelin is wrap vs over the shoulder hand path, exemplified by Zelezny and Backley, respectively. Both produce looooong throws so as to the fundamental movement patterning, I would agree that much convergence exists. It's all about impulse.

John

[VGB]

The only divergence in javelin is wrap vs over the shoulder hand path, exemplified by Zelezny and Backley, respectively.

Hi John

That divergence comes after 2500 years of honing the technique and pretty much what the Japanese baseball pitchers study came up with, convergence followed by divergence at the extremes of effort.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-87614-z

he current study clarifies that common features are obvious in distinguishing between low and high effort and that unique features are evident in differentiating high and highest efforts.

regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi Vince,

I am not sure what specific movements you are referring to as divergent in javelin.

John

[VGB]

Hi John

wrap vs over the shoulder hand path, exemplified by Zelezny and Backley

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi Vince,

I disagree, I think the differences in alignment (wrap - Zelezney vs linear- Backley) are primarily constraint driven and suspect both have existed for 2500 years.



John

[VGB]

Hi John

I'm not a javelin aficionado but did follow the Bell/Backley/Sanderson/Whitbread competitions back in the day. What specific constraints are you talking about?

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi Vince,

Physiology generally determines which of the two works best. Blakley was a great thrower. In my view he exemplifies shoulder rotation as the primary driver of throwing performance, whereas others use the elbow. A superb technician. He would make a great caster.

John

[FishNoGeek]

Physiology generally determines which of the two works best. Blakley was a great thrower. In my view he exemplifies shoulder rotation as the primary driver of throwing performance, whereas others use the elbow. A superb technician. He would make a great caster.

This was also my impression after yesterday's flurry of so-called research. I hadn't found Backley yet, but he seems to be a healthy contrast with Johannes Vetter, who appears to be one of the current big men of the sport....and I mean that, he's BIG. Seems like the fairly standard trade-off between power and technique that we find across many sports. Backley needed to be a technician in part because he wasn't massive. Nothing wrong with either approach, just a matter of matching technique to physique.

I got a chance to cast with Rick Hartman early this year, and this exchange reminded me of that experience. I'm not a small dude, but Rick's a BEAST. He's got wrist and forearm and bicep and shoulder and core strength that I just don't have and never will. He can specific operations - like verrrrry late (and fast!) wrist rotation with a grip that's very far down on the rod - that I intend to approach with more training, but realistically, I'm just not going to get to his level. I'll have to compensate with other refinements if I intend to weasel my up to his level.

John, my apologies for not having tracked down what you've posted on this topic in the past. Looking into it now!

[VGB]

Thanks John, that pretty much aligns with Rob Grays review of the Japanese paper as well, where individual divergence occurred about the 80% effort mark.

I guess if Backley ever comes for a lesson and a day out, I'll have to work on my terminology. Saying "hit it" could be an expensive day at the office.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi Vince,

I wonder what Backley or Zelezny would charge me for a fly casting lesson, now that would be money very well spent.

John