Late rotation heavy fly rods

[Phil Blackmar]

Dear Paul et al

I have been a late rotation enthusiast with all my casts for quite some time. . A couple days ago, I found myself throwing a 12 wt attempting 100 ft casts to jacks. While I reached the fish, my loops sucked. Since that time, I got together with Andy and I’ve been experimenting more with early rotation.

This morning I had out a 9 with a fly that is somewhat bulky. With late rotation, I couldn’t get the fly to layout on a long cast. So I went to very early rotation, not with the wrist but by raising the elbow so I saved the wrist. I then rotated the hips and shoulders, pushed with the elbow and left the wrist rotation til last for a very late rotation with the tip that reminded of me your torque twist.

It made me think of a post by Gary a while back where he lamented slow twitch muscle fibers and not being strong enough to turn over the bigger rods. I’m right there with him.

Net effect was I gained a much better layout and about 10 ft distance. I’ll post a video later.

Cheers. Phil

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Phil,

Not so much a technique tweak, but as the offshore guys have been saying for years, shorter rods can be better for heavier lines.

They like them for fish fighting, but I am finding them easier to move.

The trade off is probably max distance achievable, but I have found long-ish casts actually easier.

Gary

[Vinny]

Gary
How short is “shorter”?

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Vinny,

Actually, not that much shorter. All my "short" rods are over 8'. They range from 8'3" to 8'10".

My most recent acquisitions are 8'4" and these are not that heavy (6 and 8 wts). Using the heavy rods (10s and 11s) made me realize that shorter blanks are so much more convenient for fishing from a canoe so I tried these lighter ones too. When I am solo, I am always fishing from a canoe. These days, when I fish on friends boats, I am finding that I still opt to bring at least one of the shorter rods... if larger tarpon are going to be the target.

Keep in mind, these rods are for fishing. As I stated above, I do not believe I can get my maximum distance out of these shorter levers. But I definitely believe I can get as much fishing distance as I will ever need, and get there with less effort - but "fishing" distances are not a problem for me. Its more about efficiency.

I have found a number of advantages: the shorter rods seem to be more accurate, and they definitely fight fish better. (The largest tarpon I have "caught" so far, around 150, came on a shorty... that fight is what really changed my perspective!)

But, the surprising thing about them is how much easier (as in less effort) they are to cast in the upper weights, even if they are only a few inches shorter. I'm sure the physics guys can mathematically explain the torque / leverage advantages.

Actually, it just dawned upon me that my favorite rod for chasing baby snook and tarpon is also a short one... its an 8' 4wt that I have been using for a couple decades!

[Graeme H]

I'm with you on the short rods Gary. All my favourite heavy line weight rods are short (8') fibreglass rods, single piece. I designed the blanks as 10 wt rods, but they are fine to cast/fish with any line between a 6 and a 12. Fishing a 6 is not a fair fight, but swapping from a 10 down to an 8 is a great way of minimising disturbance on the water when the fish are spooky. Swapping up to a 12 is great for those heavier fly situations.

As 10wts, they let me cast a full line if I need to (from the boat) and as you say, they give me plenty of fish-fighting power when required.

Being 'glass - so a bit softer - they are even easier on the body to cast than the TFO Mini-Mag rods I used to have.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Graeme H]

Phil,

I find a lot of students want to hit the 12 wt rods as hard as they hit the lower weights. All that effort is usually not needed with those heavier lines.

Try casting to 70 or 80 feet with your normal effort, and then once you've established a baseline of how that feels and casts, dial back the power gradually until the cast just fails. The idea is to see how little effort you can put into the cast at that distance.

Then take it out to 90' and repeat, and eventually to 100'.

I think you'll find that the loop will hold quite well with less effort.

Also, when you say "the fly was somewhat bulky" and the line would not lay out nicely, that's exactly the time you probably should be thinking about the heavier line weights. We choose fly first, then line weight to suit the fly, then rod weight to suit the line. If your bulky fly was not working, it's indicating you're attempting to cast a fly that's too bulky for the line weight.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Phil Blackmar]

Graeme and Gary-

Awesome stuff, thank you both. You really have me intrigued with the shorter rods. The only one I have is a Fenwick 6/7 I use for accuracy practice. I haven't had it that long but I absolutely love the rod. I've been threatening to take it to the water and you just convinced me. I can't wait.....I also have a 7 graphite rod that I accidentally slammed in the door and bit off about 3" of the tip. I use it for practice when traveling for work. Does that count as a short rod or does it need to be designed at 8.....?

Graeme, I have been told the same thing about how to choose a line based on the flies you intend to throw. I actually do that when fishing, but in practice, I like to challenge myself with a situation, such as bulky flies, which I can handle if I do everything right. I enjoy experimenting with techniques and practicing this way is a good way to evaluate my expeditions.

As for throwing easier, you are exactly right, again. My biggest problem in my stroke, IMO, is my tendency to speed up too soon. This tendency is fueling my quest to better understand the relationships between translation, rotation and haul timing. We all have tendencies under pressure, and knowing these tendencies can be very useful. Pressure can come from many sources, certainly from within us but triggers are usually situational such as wind, distance, accuracy required, speed etc. Having tools to deal with circumstances is part of what I enjoy about the sport. Thank you for the suggestions, I will put them to use.

[Graeme H]

You forgot the most insidious pressure Phil: a bloody big fish moving quickly at the extremity of your casting range!

(My personal pressure release in that situation is to watch my back cast and remember to breathe. )

Oh, and a 8'9" rod is not short enough for me to consider it anything other than a normal rod. Short for me is between 7' and 8'. That is, a difference that makes me adjust the cast or a rod that actually feels different when casting.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Paul Arden]

Hi Phil,

I’m much more compact with a 12WT. In distance shootouts we see a considerable drop in distance. I try to set a tighter loop and concentrate on the haul. Imagine the more punchy OSD technique, rolling the shoulder. Usually the heads are pretty short anyway. Would love to demonstrate but the one I lent you is now in Africa

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Phil,
When I was young (in my 20s), my fav rod for coastal Sea trout was 9'6" long. A 10' was too heavy, but gave me slightly more max distance at the time. BUT I was never fishing against the wind!
Today I use 9' and that enables me to fish longer as with a 9'6" rod. Quite an energy saving difference for me.
However when casting towards wind an 8' rod serves me best. I fished a lot towards wind in the past 20 years.
1 feet in length difference is a lot! Sea trout = 8wt. lines.
For tarpon I used 11 and 12wt. lines. Since I usually did not cast for 8 hours and were high on a boat, I liked 9' best. For playing the fish I think one can point the rod towards the fish. I dont think 1 feet less would shorten the fight for me (might be wrong though). But probably little less concentration needed!
Casting truly heavy flies a short rod is a proper choice.
Regards
Bernd