Teaching acceleration

[Bernd Ziesche]

Mark, Vince, Paul,
You guys like to compare fly casting to other sports...

I learnt and perfomed handball, football, basketball, volleye ball, tennis, table tennis, kung fu, judo, taekwondo and capoeira. In all these sports I did have lessons. Some teachers were widely respected ones improving their teaching all the time. One was even in the top 3 of the world.
All lessons had one aspect in common:
No paperworks, no videos and simply nothing was given to avoid forgetting what was being taught. The outcome all along was a constant repeating of what we did in the previous lessons. Since you guys seem to claim, that other sport's teaching is so much further developed compared to ours, then why was this?
For me the answer is clear. A high number of lessons were set up anyway and one would repeat the same over and over again, while the costs per training were low compared to ours and the expectations went hand in hand with that.
That's by the way another aspect. Students expectations are having quite impact on the level of instruction in long terms.

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

Vince,

Paul now calls it EXPLORING BECAUSE you guys now all the way explained it not to be learning.
All of a sudden now you call it LEARNING.

I really think that you need to engage with the research a bit before throwing out these criticisms, Paul has done which is why he is making these comments. If you go back and watch the video that I linked at Post 143, you will pick up on this slide:

As part of the exploration Paul will have set some task, individual or environmental constraints with the idea to focus the practice session on adaptability. This is an essential skill set for any angler and one I like to encourage so that my students can produce contrived casts in difficult places to fish.

That aside I don't know what mindlessly repeating is. But I can tell you, you won't find any guys who have repeated the same type of cast more often than Paul and Steve Rajeff. Paul had a time, in which for years he was training hours every day. Many times repeating the exact same types of casts. Steve is probably the most focused guy when it comes to accuracy. Is that mindless? Not at all in my book. I call it the never ending process of learning.
Cheers
Bernd

Do you think that competition accuracy requires exactly the same practice regime as fishing accuracy? How well will that finely honed overhead 45ft cast with a 9' #5 rod serve here?

Would you recommend Paul and Steve's training regime for an angler in this environment?

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

I learnt and perfomed handball, football, basketball, volleye ball, tennis, table tennis, kung fu, judo, taekwondo and capoeira. In all these sports I did have lessons. Some teachers were widely respected ones improving their teaching all the time. One was even in the top 3 of the world.
All lessons had one aspect in common:
No paperworks, no videos and simply nothing was given to avoid forgetting what was being taught. The outcome all along was a constant repeating of what we did in the previous lessons. Since you guys seem to claim, that other sport's teaching is so much further developed compared to ours, then why was this?
For me the answer is clear. A high number of lessons were set up anyway and one would repeat the same over and over again, while the costs per training were low compared to ours and the expectations went hand in hand with that.
That's by the way another aspect. Students expectations are having quite impact on the level of instruction in long terms.

Hi Bernd

How was one ranked top 3 in the world without giving you video or paper notes? Was it Top 3 or performing or top 3 coaching?

I have also played multiple sports at lower national league level and some pretty high level stuff in my youth and there were 2 types of coaching available. A couple of days or a weekend that consisted mostly of demonstrations, alternatively there was also 1 to 1 or 1 to a few players over an extended period of time. The latter was serious coaching and structured towards stated objectives, the former was a money spinner and usually promised that you would learn all you needed to know in one session.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Hi Vince,

Totally agree. When I set something like the All Planes exercise I often ask them to come up with as many uses as they can think, and let me know what they come up with next time. That’s a more engaging exercise.

One of my students suggested to me this week, making the backcast of the Svirgolato an inverted overpowered inverted loop to pop the fly up. I haven’t tried it yet but I like the sound of it.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

ell my students, that not going to practise with what was learnt today, I will meet them at the same point, where we started the lesson after a year has passed. So I see this even more drastically/dramatically as you do.
Cheers
Bernd

Then what have they learned? Didn’t you say earlier that once it is learned it is learned? I’m not sure who you are agreeing with now. Not yourself I suspect.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

I think I need to ask this question again, Bernd. If you now could teleport back in time and teach yourself to fly cast from the very beginning, how long do you think it would take you to reach your current level? Obviously not the same amount of time, otherwise that would mean your coaching doesn’t work , so I assume it will take less time. How much less? How many years of coaching would it take to bring you to your current standard? I’m assuming it’s not one long lesson

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

One of my students suggested to me this week, making the backcast of the Svirgolato an inverted overpowered inverted loop to pop the fly up. I haven’t tried it yet but I like the sound of it.

Sounds quite funky

I'm better at Svirgilato on my back cast than the forward because I find it easier to tail. Once you have the idea of combining tails, loop twisting and tinkering with power and shoots, you can get some really great line layouts. After a week of that, I went out small stream fishing this week and probably cast as well as I ever have. I think that having packed so many variations into a casting stroke, it seemed like I had all the time in the world to deliver straightforward casts in a fishing situation.

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

Let’s start from a place where you may be surprised to discover that we agree Bernd. That is that people learn something in fly casting lessons, actually learn something, in real time, during the lesson. I believe people learn things from demos and group lessons and fishing trips with instructors too. I believe they learn from mums and dads and uncles and aunts, vids and books and even from sexyloops.

Whatever the learning environment, only a complete nutcase would assume that they’re going to retain everything. Nevertheless, you are quite correct in that it is totally reasonable to expect that they’ll retain something. I think a caster is more likely to retain a piece of information in a one to one than they would in a demo. I’d be interested to know if you do too and why?

Despite what you may think, like you I believe there is a learning curve. My learning curve has a wide range of acceptable performance “error” at the beginning and a very narrow range of acceptable performance “error” at the top. It has peaks and troughs, flats, plateaus and sudden rises from start to finish. It is a process over time, exactly as defined in your dictionary quotes. Where a caster sits in this process has a determining effect on how you deliver and the content you deliver.

What is at issue is not whether there is learning happening, we’d be wasting our time if we didn’t think it was, it is how much learning is happening and whether we can increase that by modifying how we teach. To do that we need reliable evidence of learning. For me that means asking whether a caster can perform something consistently, over time, at the error range appropriate for their position on the learning curve, without me whispering in their ear ie. using independent feedback. If they can do that, it’s learned.

For me, what I see in lessons is not sufficient evidence for me to reasonably conclude it’s learned. I might draw that conclusion if I see them a month later and they can do it but at the end of lesson one, I can’t. This is not a problem someone with a series of lessons faces. It’s perfectly possible you don’t either…in which case we follow our different ways.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Vince,
I did watch the video and found all those 5 characteristics of learning already included in my teaching. Only it can't be characteristics of learning, when according to all three of you there is no learning in a lesson and whatever final performance results, doesn't qualify as the result of having learnt something.
I believe, that nearly no one I have ever met can train the way Paul and Steve did. At least no one I know could spend nearly as much time as Paul did hence his huge spectrum. Steve I think spent less time, but seems to have specialized a lot on tournament casting. Still he too, seems to have spent 10 times more hours as 95% ever could. My point was however, that I don't know what mindless repeating of the same is, but repeating the exercise is what we all did in our training. I recomment to repeat the exercise but focus on one particular key at a time and then change to another after short time. Still repeating the same cast that is. To answer your question, in a fishing situation point 5 comes in. Adaptability. Here I recommend to train with targets and objects. Competition accuracy is one (straight overhead cast), a bow and arrow cast or my roll cast with the fly anchoring in hand would be two other to make some use of in tight small river situation. In such tight situations I recommend to better master one straight cast, then having ten types of casts all to 50% available. There isnt much room for failure, if catching is the target.

My Capoeira teacher had won the WC 3 x if I remember correct and was many times published to be among the top teachers in the world. What does it matter?
My point was clear: I never saw sport teachers (2 made their living on it) supporting best possible to have their clients achieve the steepest possible learning curves. Not much difference to what I experienced in our world.

In terms of studies, yes there will be more research available in some other broader sports. Still this doesnt mean, that Mel Krieger didn't spend all his life to study the outcome of his teaching to improve all the time. We do have some outstanding teachers who study their and the teaching of others as well.
Now Paul sais he was an idiot. But I know he studied other teachers all the way! I saw him doing this many times. And I have zero doubt he is a fantastic teacher even though he seems a bit "lost" to me in just having changed very much in a very short time. Maybe this asks for some time to get back on a more clear line. Has been like this for me anyway. Every new way of teaching needs time to be optimized and adjusted. Throwing some away is part also.
Cheers
B

[Bernd Ziesche]

If you now could teleport back in time and teach yourself to fly cast from the very beginning, how long do you think it would take you to reach your current level?
How much less? How many years of coaching would it take to bring you to your current standard? I’m assuming it’s not one long lesson

Paul,
it took me 2 weeks to cast on my none regular side like I could after 15 to 20 years on my regular side. D hauling took me 5 minutes here and it sticks without any training.
My exgf. hit upto 120 feet MED5 (tailwind) after 3 years. I couldn't after well over 20 years.
Ronny hit 44m when I hit 33,5m. But was he a 100 times better caster? No of course not. What I was missing were very tiny bits and I never had trained MED5 before. The difficulty was to find the tiny bits. Exactly where a great teacher comes in. He can deliver the tiny bits.
Ronny is a brilliant fly caster. But today you find a serious number of casters who hit over 40m in such winds. What has changed? The knowledge was spread.
A year ago I gave a distance lesson in Spain. This year one of the students was that good, he is very competitive for the WC, if he can cast that level in the tournament. He trained all year though. I could give plenty of examples for a 10x steeper learning curve post proper instruction.
One lesson can't produce a world class caster, but it can deliver key factors that those not attending any proper lesson most likely will never get to know in their entire life.
My learning curve would be 10 x steeper, if I could go back.
Cheers
B