Amplification of error.

[Stoatstail50]

Original paper here

https://www.researchgate.net/publicat ... rovement

[easterncaster]

"The single most important factor influencing learning is what the learner already knows. Ascertain this, and teach her/him accordingly"

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Mark,
Can you give an example for when you use that method in fishing or casting?
Regards
Bernd

[Stoatstail50]

Slightly puzzled by that question Bernd sorry, it's a teaching technique, not a fishing or casting teachnique.

I think I most commonly use it for over rotation of the rod, excess wrist certainly, reaching up...when we see the long straight arm but it's good for excess power too.

[Paul Arden]

Tailing loops and power application is another good one.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Mark,
Can you give an example for when you use that method in fishing or casting?
Regards
Bernd

Teaching fishing or casting I meant...

I am interested in further details.
Over rotation means low stop and you ask to stop lower?

What happens and where you see the advantages and disadvantages?

[Stoatstail50]

Whatever they're doing you ask for more of it, yes.

Personally I want to link whatever they're doing to an independently observable outcome..."The more you move the rod like this, the more of this (observable line shape) you get".

What happens ? They do more of it. If you then ask them to do less of it...they will, because, if they've just discovered they can increase it, they have simultaneously worked out they can decrease it too. If you read the papers for this it explains it all.

A disadvantage is that it's often the total opposite of what a caster is expecting you to ask them to do and they think you're nuts so they lose confidence in your ability to help them. Particularly if you demo with a leek.

An advantage is that because it's unexpected they remember it. Another is that it actively demonstrates their capacity to control outcomes, even shit ones, which boosts self efficacy. A third is it creates an external focus of attention and drives automaticity. It can be expanded into Old Way, New Way which in turn reinforces what is learned through Error Amplification. It creates a concept of range of control as opposed to the "true right way". It is transportable for independent practice because its so simple and the caster doesn't need any help to get feedback. Finally, it has been proven across a number of other disciplines to be hugely more effective for long term error correction than a direct assault.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Mark,
I have many students who are well educated, very smart and excellent listeners.
This method ime can leave the impression of me playing a kind of game with them as if I was thinking they are not able to listen, understand and perform in the way I truly want them to.
I prefer to believe, that if a student can increase a certain movement as a reaction to me asking him to, he most likely can decrease it straight away as well.
I get the points you (the studies) made.
However, usually there is a range between what they did and after optimizing do anyway. Also often there are different levels needed for different situations also. It rarely is one precise level of movement for all.
What I did and do often, is to make someone feel significant too much and spot-on moves (level of force application or smoothness vs. too sudden burst of fa). Similuar method... but I adress directly what it is about.
And it goes for seconds, no more.

Myself I never needed any unexpected way. Whenever someone explained me a proper correct movement, I kept it. And I don't see why I wouldn't unless I am not willing to put in my part, too.
Bottom line for me:
Proper method but the details of how to deliver it may cause different reactions/feelings.
Time management for the whole package also is in my focus always...
Regards
B

[Paul Arden]

It’s funny we used to be quite similar Bernd and now we are a million miles apart I don’t think that research papers are the best reads. They are not written for us. Books are better.

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

I think the other paper is easier to read than this one Paul and it covers similar ground. Instructors will recognise whole sections of it which describe exactly the kind of issue Craig highlighted in the other thread.

These techniques are used and proven in all sorts of contexts from sport to stroke recovery. They’re very easy to adapt to fly casting.