Amplification of error.

[VGB]

Where AoE really scores is that it expands the available casting solutions for the student and me. When you move away from the practice field, the fish will not always be 30ft away in a wide open space. There are environmental constraints such as wind, trees, rocks etc that need to be dealt with and the parallel legs, needle nose loop cast may not be the answer.

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

On why a show demo is less effective than a one to one lesson?

Hi Mark,
No, but on how short and slim a lesson can be, while the outcome still massively changes one's world of casting or fishing forever.
Or if, there is a correlation between time of teaching to outcome rather then making one understand to outcome.
Cheers
B

[VGB]

I read on SL "delay your haul". Next day my issue of a bc tailing on long line was gone withing 3 minutes of trying.

Interesting point about Motor Imagery in the ballet dance paper that I referenced in the other thread:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4805647/

If the dancer’s conceptual understanding of the task changes, motor imagery can activate the different non-conscious processes involved in learning new motor tasks (Jackson et al., 2001).

I think that the big takeaway is that dressing in a tutu will accelerate your learning

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

No, but on how short and slim a lesson can be, while the outcome still massively changes one's world of casting or fishing forever

Well…

I agree that too. I can remember several occasions when I was given specific, internally focussed, explicit instruction which had a dramatic effect on my casting when I went and tried it. But we’re not exactly new to casting, we already have the degree of accurate control necessary to execute the instruction.

These threads get twisted out of shape because it’s never really made clear whether we’re talking about teaching beginners, recreational casters, instructors or competition distance casters. All of whom could be in the audience at a show demo which is obviously not going to be tailored to the needs of all of them at once. Nor are they going to get rod in hand to try to execute, which is when we really learn…by doing it.

I also believe that single short lessons can be effective, just that they’re not as effective as a series of short lessons.

I rarely get the privilege of a sequence, the max this year has been three. All I hope to be able to do is to maximise the effectiveness of my teaching in the short period available by introducing effective techniques from the outside world. The effects may be marginal compared to traditional teaching, or even non existent, this I fully accept. Nevertheless, these things are posted up on here is because I believe they make a lesson more effective. I have no means other than anecdote to support that belief, however, I think that, if a positive effect is observed in research in other movement disciplines, it’s probable that it will be positive in this movement discipline too. Only probable.

I have no bloody idea who reads this stuff or whether anyone tries it and that is precisely the issue with demos Bernd they are a blind shot at a flight of birds, might hit one, might not.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Good points, Mark. Same page here.
We all have different motivations when going on a show watching a demo or entering a fly casting lesson.
When I was on any show I always watched for the famous caster in the first place. And so did many visitors. Fame was much more important than topic. You could easily forecast the number of ppl watching. Ok, in addition you'd give the best times (most visitors) to those most well known casters.
So after all science of best teaching motor skills remains one interesting aspect for sure, happiness of those attending depends on many more keys...
One main reason why I dislike Paul's idea, that from his to date point of view we all were widely unsuccessfull in teaching and we should have done very different. I believe many of us did great!
Cheers
B

[Stoatstail50]

One main reason why I dislike Paul's idea, that from his to date point of view we all were widely unsuccessfull in teaching and we should have done very different. I believe many of us did great!

Here we have to think very carefully Bernd, “wildly unsuccessful” is demonstrably not what has happened and many have indeed done great.

The issue really is, could we have done it any better? If we decide that we couldn't, or we can’t, then we declare our own unchallengeable, unimprovable perfection as instructors. This is a status that I have certainly not attained.

[Bernd Ziesche]

I agree with that, Mark.

But let me put one (my) point of view straight:
We have some brilliant instructors who did their best in teaching fly casting for 40 to 50 years and a few did teach even longer. They have created tons of satisfied students best enjoying their fishing.
Compared to that: Corona was happening "yesterday". Then there is fishing, family, job and so on. Yet we spent very little time and obviously know a shit about teaching thru a digital bottle neck. I have zero doubt, that there is a much longer way of improvements to be gone yet compared to the face to face teaching many of us have improved for many decades.
Bottle neck teaching will not enter the instructor certs for a while, I think. For proper reason!

There is no need trying to put up a battle, which way of teaching is more effective. If I would want that however, I would start to compare the price level (what you get for what you pay) first.
Regards
B

[Paul Arden]

I understand that there are people who have a fear of getting better, lest they discover that they weren’t as good as they thought they were. It’s a strange psychology.

My philosophy in life is to keep getting better until the day I die. No top of the mountain. I’m excited to see what I’ll be teaching in 40 years time and I’m quite sure it won’t be the same as I do today.

We can be better. We can always be better. That should be our motivation. After all that’s what we teach.

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

There is no need trying to put up a battle, which way of teaching is more effective.

It isn't a battle, it's the subject of over 100 years of study in universities all over the planet. What has been established is that some ways are more effective than others...way it is. All out there if you care to look.

The two techniques AoE and Old way, new way, are established means of dealing with what we call muscle memory in a vast number of movement disciplines. Over the years I have found adapting these two techniques and working with them in a casting lesson to be really useful. They're quick and very effective ways of breaking habitual performance error and which fit well with an overall objective of teaching ranges of control. They're also easy to understand and a ready made takeaway drill for independent practice.

For new or interested instructors they would, in my opinion at least, be worthy of a look. Whether anyone chooses to do that or not is up to them.

Having said that, the obfuscation, distraction and downright obstruction of any open discussion on the subject, here and elsewhere, has been something of a surprise to me over the years. Still is.





.

[John Waters]

There is no need trying to put up a battle, which way of teaching is more effective.

It isn't a battle, it's the subject of over 100 years of study in universities all over the planet. What has been established is that some ways are more effective than others...way it is. All out there if you care to look.

The two techniques AoE and Old way, new way, are established means of dealing with what we call muscle memory in a vast number of movement disciplines. Over the years I have found adapting these two techniques and working with them in a casting lesson to be really useful. They're quick and very effective ways of breaking habitual performance error and which fit well with an overall objective of teaching ranges of control. They're also easy to understand and a ready made takeaway drill for independent practice.

For new or interested instructors they would, in my opinion at least, be worthy of a look. Whether anyone chooses to do that or not is up to them.

Having said that, the obfuscation, distraction and downright obstruction of any open discussion on the subject, here and elsewhere, has been something of a surprise to me over the years. Still is.
.

Hi Mark,

Instruction methods will change, it just takes time. Knowledge is the foundation, social media will be the channel and performance will be the trigger. People will become frustrated with their lack of improvement and will seek alternate instructional options. The more often the data is referred to, the greater the groundswell, and the faster the change. "Muscle memory" is both a great challenge to instruction and a great opportunity but results will always win out.

Keep stokin' the fire,

John