Amplification of error.

[Stoatstail50]

. but I adress directly what it is about.

Me too… it’s isn’t about games or magic tricks or treating your student as a fool it is about promoting the normal processes of self discovery so that they can learn more effectively.

What is a casting “error” for you Bernd ?

[Bernd Ziesche]

I don’t think that research papers are the best reads. They are not written for us. Books are better.

Most books about fly casting I have are tricky with all the issues in them. But yes, they were written for us.

Lately a lot of research papers have been linked and discussed on SL. The main issue I see here is, that research usually doesn't include to look at all the different motivations students have to book a fly fishing or fly casting lesson. No need to say, that having a great day easily can be rated much higher than if the perfect amount of improvement was taken home or not.

I like to look into research papers, but the world of teaching in such a hobby area has far more colours imo.

There is quite a difference between face to face and face to screen teaching of course. Also there is a huge difference, if someone wants to catch a pike or win the WC in trout distance.
Cheers
B

[VGB]

I've found that most fly casting books don't make sense until after you can make the cast. I have had many great days which were fun without learning anything to do with fly casting movement skills

I like to look into research papers, but the world of teaching in such a hobby area has far more colours imo

I agree - spoken and unspoken communication is massive.

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

. but I adress directly what it is about.

Me too… it’s isn’t about games or magic tricks or treating your student as a fool it is about promoting the normal processes of self discovery so that they can learn more effectively.

What is a casting “error” for you Bernd ?

We are most likely on the same page here, I think.

Looking back I did have instructors treating me as a fool though. Best was a guy in Switzerland. He demonstrated how to cast well over 30m by having his leader + several meters of fly line collaps into spaghettie. Then he went to the spaghettie, pulled it straight and announced this to have been a 37m cast ("just didn't land fully straight this time"). That was supporting me for a master exam after I asked for support in distance improvement. Best thing he did that in front of 6 students. It became a running gag for some of us. I don't know how often I met shortened fly lines in order to have the instructor cast FAR. Or shortened leaders to make a cast curve. Always has been strange to my why some instructors treat their clients as fools.

[Bernd Ziesche]

I also would make a difference in having a hole group running into over pronouncing an issue or if I use it for making something click to a single student. And then time is the other point.
I would not spent 15 min to have 6 students run into overdoing and then let them know why we did this afterwards. Wouldn't feel good to me.
But for a short direct adressing "make it click", I did use it many times. Usually combined with feeling.

[Bernd Ziesche]

A casting error for myself is when my cast doesnt hit the desired outcome.
For my students it may also be, that it was more than that. They often don't know what is or isn't possible. So I check with their desires and may help to increase (or decrease) them in addition.
A proper cast should support the final desires we have fishing wise.
I prefer to talk about room for improvement instead of error mostly.

[Stoatstail50]

A casting error for myself is when my cast doesnt hit the desired outcome.

Me too…

A proper cast should support the final desires we have fishing wise.

Yes, absolutely agree…kinda

I prefer to talk about room for improvement instead of error mostly.

Yes…I rarely if ever talk about error.

[VGB]

A casting error for myself is when my cast doesnt hit the desired outcome.

What sort of things to you include as desired outcomes in your lessons Bernd?

regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

Vince,
Desired outcomes are highly tight to the level and abilities of each student and what he needs and wants. Usually we quickly create the same page for his (realistic) desires. But to get here, I had to learn a lot!
That same page can be a certain avg. distance for smooth casts. It can be a proper double hauling, getting rid of a tailing issue, positioning the rotation more efficient or many more. It can also be to get rid of pain coming in too often. Or being able to expand fishing time.
Unfortunately my oldest student (93) just passed away. With him it was all about concentrating the energy available to have a few proper casts in that moment of the day, when the Sea trout were around and in a good mood. He really had to learn not to run out of bullets too early. And I had to learn how to make the whole day worth it and how to best built a team with the whole group for those trips. On the final trip he succeeded and there was a moment when it all came together one last time. A moment I'll never forget. Then I once had a client who booked me knowing that he was on his final days. That was without telling me though. He was full of cancer as it then turned out to me in minutes. It was a tough situation having had a group of six along the Swedish coast, all much older than me. Boy, did I learn about different desires in that week!

A good casting lesson is the one supporting the fishing day to be a great one!

That matched the desire of most my students. Great fishing days are their number one goal.

[Stoatstail50]

A good casting lesson is the one supporting the fishing day to be a great one!

I agree that too.

It comes back to the point Craig was making, which is about discovering and then matching up what a caster already “knows” with what their angling ambitions are.

What is meant by what they “know” in the context of these papers is the motor control patterns that they habitually employ. That is, something they’ve already learned to do. This is not information they know about casting like the 5, or 6, Es, it’s about the underlying patterns of movement.

Error amplification, and old way new way, take the habituated pattern that a caster already “knows” and uses it as a base for expanding to a wider range of controlled motion.

For the most part, a wider range of controlled motion is exactly what is needed to improve someone’s chances of getting a fish.

Mel Krieger used error amplification.