Further skills development

[Paul Arden]

Hi Mark,

I’ve been thoroughly enjoying the last book you suggested I read. I really can’t for the life of me understand why most CIs don’t read movement or sports coaching books. Particularly after being recommended to by other flycasting coaches. The world is a strange place. But that’s a different topic. I’m only about half way through however so maybe this part is coming!

I’d like to discuss something that I find very interesting. If I have a competent caster in say the high 90s/low 100s who is actively trying or improve his distance, I find if I teach them single handed Spey casting they can often develop quickly into to 110-115 category.

Now there are some caveats around this. For example we will have been working on the distance before this. I will have taught them both OSD and 170. They will have a great backcast delivery shot. But the interesting thing is we are talking a significant distance increase in a relatively short period of time, a month say, and without specifically working on, in this case, distance.

Now my theory is it’s about increased control of course. But more specifically it slows down the beginning of the stroke. They subconsciously or even consciously realise that they have more time than they thought to make the cast, after all if they can drag the flyline around in a Sweep move, they can drag the line at the beginning of a Distance Stroke. Perhaps the beginning of a Distance cast is the same mechanism in the mind as Sweep in Speys. Perhaps it also involves body movement.

I envisage it to be a bit like cross pollination. I’ve used similar approaches elsewhere many times but this one really comes to the fore since I’ve been teaching Spey casting to so many students these past years on Zoom. And the improvement at times can be quite extraordinary.

Has anyone else experienced similar and what are your thoughts on it?

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

I really can’t for the life of me understand why most CIs don’t read movement or sports coaching books.

Because no one suggests that they do. We’ve got a few on the MCI reading list now but it’s not enough. The one you’re reading is a Vince recommendation…and it’s a belter isn’t it
TBH I don’t know why any instructor wouldn’t read them once they know they’re there…my guess is that they don’t believe they need to.

I’m going to caveat my answers with the fact that almost no one on the planet is going to come to me for a distance lesson or is going to waste a second asking me for competition training advice. I’ve worked around distance casters, with them, and been taught by them for as long as I’ve been teaching…I’ve never given a lesson to one.

So, my guess for this one is.

1. They’re using improved “transfer” skills to adapt a subroutine from one to the other, slow start being evidence for this.

2. They have learned a broader range of controlled motion from which to transfer.

3. That the change from Overhead to Spey is running as interference for any “freezing” effects they may be experiencing when they’re distance casting.

4. It’s just a benefit of adding variation or difference to a practice routine.

5. They believe that,after learning a single Spey, they can learn bloody anything

[Paul Arden]

Thanks Mark.

3. Is a very interesting one. I recommend and use myself training breaks when I hit a wall. That’s not to mean we stop training, just change what we are working on. We are very lucky to have different and diverse disciplines in fly casting.

But in this case I don’t think it’s 3 (at least no more than usual) because while I see improvements after coaching presentation casts and mends, I don’t see distance improvements. So for me it must have a more direct influence.

I assume therefore that Sweep and Drag are very closely related. And really Sweep is just a lot more of Drag and more controlled.

They look like they have more time when they revert back to distance casting. Drag appears more positive and not just something to do while delaying rotation.

I do take away from this and similar examples, not to get bogged down when things ht a plateau. Always find another similar but yet different route.

Making it to the reading lists is a great start!

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Which book?

[Stoatstail50]

Motor learning and performance, Schmidt and Lee.

If you buy one, get the 5th edition Gary, the latest one is v expensive.

I think we all have a tendency to decide it has to be one thing or another Paul, very evident on these threads, especially when things get disputatious.

Effects compound and it’s often the case that lesson structure, or even just one drilling technique, reinforces another, or combines with more than one, learning process. In many respects putting a lesson together is just like casting. It’s a crude connection but, just as there are generalised patterns of motion that you have to adapt to the environment in order to make an effective cast, there are also generalised patterns of learning behaviours that you have to adapt to your student in order to make an effective lesson. It’s never one thing, it’s many.

In the case of casters who can throw a 5# 100’, they have learned the underpinning general patterns already and now you’re coaching for incremental performance improvement. By my standards this is going to be by micro variation in a very narrow range of accurately controlled motion. I’m afraid this is not at all my area of expertise.

[easterncaster]

1. They’re using improved “transfer” skills to adapt a subroutine from one to the other, slow start being evidence for this.

2. They have learned a broader range of controlled motion from which to transfer.

"A cast should not be a salvage operation" < attributed to Dec Hogan...

In Spey and in Distance casting the initial movement is so important - it sets the tone and and gets all the ducks in a row; for many casters it becomes a salvage operation.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Paul,
I bet I can list a range of proper fishing books not having been in your attention yet, which hold excellent information supporting you teaching to catch fish.
Same holds true for articles in magazines and elsewhere. Have you read the fishing articles on my website, no? If you ever want to know, what made you fail all week on Rügen, answers are all in them. I bet transfer possible.
There is a lot of valuable information inside our world, so why start outside?
Have you been studying all studies about ocean fish yet? I have studied some and learnt a lot.
But it all takes time and we all have limits and need to decide.
I could recommend to focus more on fishing and less on casting to quite some instructors, but I do very well understand, that they have too little time.
Maybe this makes you help to understand why reading books from other sports in my view is logically uncommon.
Regards
Bernd

[Stoatstail50]

Maybe this makes you help to understand why reading books from other sports in my view is logically uncommon.

The books recommended are about motor skills learning, how people learn to move.

I would humbly suggest that common logic dictates that anyone who wants to teach people to move would benefit from studying how people learn to move. The two things being closely connected.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Mark,

Totally agree it’s not one thing or another. What is interesting to me is how much impact this has on something else. It doesn’t have the same impact on anything else I can see. Nor does anything else have quite the same impact on this.

I often use Accuracy to improve Distance Casting tracking and have exercises that go from one to the other. For over 20 years I’ve used the jump roll to teach delayed rotation. But the introduction of Speys is more dynamic and makes me look at how to structure courses for the development of the caster.

For example should I introduce Speys before the 170 or after? Generally I do it after because the 170 takes a lot of work over a long time. Get it in early for an intermediate level caster and I have many more months to work with it. But maybe it’s better to switch around this process and introduce Speys before the 170…

Now ordinarily I’d just try it with a number of students and compare. This is what I will do anyway.

But it does make me think very much about how students learn. And if I can get better results simply by shifting the lesson order around. It’s quite fascinating actually. Maybe I should even introduce Speys before Distance.. I bet that would be interesting.


A great book Craig. Thoroughly recommended!

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

You seem to have got old very quickly Bernd. I hope you’re OK.