Defining Skills Levels

[VGB]

Yes. Since the ventral stream is movement and subconscious maybe they are watching the loop unroll but didn’t know it!!

And with that exciting thought… bed time

I think that is based on the assumption that they have adopted the best available information in training and that with deliberate practice, the dorsal has offloaded the workload to the ventral stream to enable autonomous movement. I think that it is entirely possible to engrain sub optimal cues and the transfer to the ventral stream enables poor autonomous movement. These people being the most difficult to teach because you have to effect behavioural change.

zzzzzzz

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Bit long this paper Paul https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cogs.12412

It’s not all obviously relevant but it has some interesting history in it which ties back in to the Fitts and Posner stuff and it gives a fairly easy to read explanation of what goes on to cause dips plateaus and leaps.

Thanks Mark. Really informative and enjoyable read. Reminds me of when I was about 10 years old. A friend had a toy computer game where you had to drive a submarine back and forwards across the screen avoiding moving bombs. It wasn’t a very advanced game with only three submarine depths. At some point I discovered that if I followed a certain route back and forward, at a certain point in the game, I could keep going until the batteries ran out

It’s interesting in flycasting how some leaps forward in one specific group of casts can affect all casts seemingly as a whole, whereas others just affect a specific part of a cast or casts.

Plateaus, dips and “leaps” I’ve long been aware of. You see jumps in performance in all areas of flycasting performance. One thing I always note is what is the catalyst. I ask my students to note down any “epiphany moments” in their training. For two reasons 1) I want them to be able to recall them. And 2) I want to know what they are. When we meet at the start of the lesson, after fishing formalities, this is what we discuss. These make for very interesting discussions.

Something else I find interesting, is regularly I hear a comment such as “now such and such a thing you said made sense to me”. Often something I had mentioned months before.

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

These papers are all a bit cold and I think there has to be a bit of creative thinking applied to fit the idea to the practice when it comes to casting. No teaching method works without it being communicated in a way which is easily understood and sympathetic to the needs of the caster. Nor do they function completely without a blanket of information about what it is people are learning.

What Fitts and Posner indicates though is that cognitive demand is high early in the learning process. For us this means that we minimise information about casting because it clogs up working memory which they need in order to do casting. As they progress and develop more autonomic behaviour they can take more information in. I find this hard to manage cos I want to gush it all out but once you get control of yourself it’s OK. Mainly because there’s a lot of bullshit available to shed.

I’m not convinced about epiphanies, some all encompassing moment resulting in a sudden improvement, but I’m sure there are many pieces of information that slot into place and speed up development. It’s a real skill timing that right imo.

[Paul Arden]

I think we might be thinking about different levels there Mark. Beginners is small incremental changes that occur while developing and exploring movement. There are no epiphany moments.

There is a huge difference between what many instructors teach at this stage and what we should be teaching. Typically, hands up, as I also used to do many years ago, we see instructors starting with a blocked PUALD exercise with 30’ of flyline and internal focus. This is still very common. Whereas variable (including much shorter line lengths) loop control exercises, with external focus, is a far better method of teaching/learning.

That to me is a given and there is absolutely no question about it.


Epiphany moments, as I call them, occur when someone is already of a skilled level, has plateaued, has often dipped in performance while exploring new movements, and then something occurs in one session that causes an increase in performance level. It will take a few practise sessions to develop but these are the leaps or jumps being discussed.

I do think it is not just one thing, they are working on many things, but one thing in particular often stands out as the catalyst. And if that can be recalled by the student then they can recover it on demand when required. But it needs to be noted down. Many times in the past I’ve had these myself and forgotten them, only to rediscover them later. Which is very frustrating!

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

…… we see instructors starting with a blocked PUALD exercise with 30’ of flyline and internal focus. This is still very common. Whereas variable (including much shorter line lengths) loop control exercises, with external focus, is a far better method of teaching/learning.

That to me is a given and there is absolutely no question about it.

You’re in a very small group then,..because it is the standard opening gambit still over here, and over there

What is interesting is that we’re discussing how to bust muscle memory which, let’s face it, is just just the sub optimal, habituated pattern of movement, which we, or someone, taught them in the first place.

Make a problem then bust your nuts down the track trying to fix it !! Just don't make the problem.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Mark,

Well even the top athletes get coached. I don’t think there is ever a point where we can’t improve. In that respect we are always sub optimal! I certainly haven’t reached my casting prime yet

Development is continual process of dismantling and rebuilding. There is much to be learned when doing this.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

According to F&P, large performance gains occur in the cognitive stage of skill acquisition

Development is continual process of dismantling and rebuilding. There is much to be learned when doing this.

I would suggest that this is the cognitive stage, even for high performing casters.

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

Well even the top athletes get coached. I don’t think there is ever a point where we can’t improve. In that respect we are always sub optimal! I certainly haven’t reached my casting prime yet

Development is continual process of dismantling and rebuilding. There is much to be learned when doing this.

Hi Paul,
Following your front pages and postings here, it seems fair to summarize you have spent a HUGE amount of time every year to study and train MED5 distance.
More then 10 years ago I saw you casting 41m in a tournament. To me it was 42 to 43, if only you wouldn't have put your shooting line down in the water. In addition it wasn't the HT10, but 5 in use.
How much further you throw it today?
I think you were on an impressive peak when we first met. From what I saw no one spent more time casting ever than you did in those years. The result was you having an impressive range of casts all top class.
You can keep learning to understand more, but it seems from your latest perspective about teaching, that just understanding doesnt drive one much further.

According to many posts of Vince and John, I am sure they'll agree we might (should) look into studies about other throwing sports at what age athletes top out. I assume we all know the answers. So how about learning from the others here, too?
Regards
Bernd

[Paul Arden]

I’m sure, Vince. It’s a process of rinse and repeat. What I was eluding to earlier is at some point there is another huge jump. Not all leaps are the same distance and up the ladder there is a big one.

Right, I am guiding from now until Boxing Day! Santa Hats and a Xmas fishes are in order. Have a fantastic Xmas and be sure to drink too much beer and eat too many mince pies.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

I haven’t trained distance for many years Bernd. I’ve tuned up a few times but even then not since before Covid. I’ve spent most of this past decade training and developing shots — that’s what floats my boat. Fishing wise right now, and my plan for the next 20 years, is all about taking shots.

I’m looking forward to the next WCs and rebuilding my distance stroke. I’ve been playing around with a few things and I’m going to have to devote quite some time to the changes required. Tuning up won’t be enough this time and I do want to give it my best.

Cheers, Paul