Defining Skills Levels

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Mark, hi Vince,
So if Bert Johansson stops training trout distance and as a consequence will drop in his level to some degree, it means he had not learnt the high level he had, right?
Learning = permanent skills as you claim.

I see this very different.
I can learn how to make a great cast by watching someone without yet being able to perform it myself. Maybe I haven't even tried to perform at all. Still understandung the how is learning to me.
And yet there is more consistency (closer to "permanent") in what I understand as is in my physical performance. The last one needs some training at times. Depending on the level I am after it can require quite some regulary training also.
Cheers
B

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

So if Bert Johansson stops training trout distance and as a consequence will drop in his level to some degree, it means he had not learnt the high level he had, right?
Learning = permanent skills as you claim.

You are still muddling learning and performance.

Learning = permanent skills as you claim.

We are not claiming anything, it is an accepted definition in sports science:

http://resource.download.wjec.co.uk.s3. ... ition.html

LEARNING – is ‘the more or less permanent change in behaviour that is reflected in a change in performance’ (Knapp). Learning is a lifelong process – even elite sports performers claim that they are still learning about their sport in order to improve their performance. Every learner will progress through the stages of learning, given appropriate opportunities to practice and receive feedback.

PERFORMANCE – is a demonstration of the solving of a problem or task at a given moment in time i.e. it is a temporary phenomenon. We can all think of very skilful performers that have an abundance of ability who sometimes turn in a poor performance.

LINK BETWEEN LEARNING AND PERFORMANCE – as learning takes place we usually see gradual improvement in performance.

https://blog.innerdrive.co.uk/learning- ... 0knowledge.

Arguably one of the most important distinctions we can make to help support our students is the difference between "performance" and "learning". This difference at times can be quite subtle, but can be very significant.…….

While performance is the short-term display of knowledge and current ability, learning is the ongoing development and accumulation of that knowledge

https://slideplayer.com/slide/13064577/

I can learn how to make a great cast by watching someone without yet being able to perform it myself..

So if I watch Bernd Johansson cast 140ft on YouTube, you would accept that as evidence that I had learned how to do it? I don’t think that you would.

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

I can learn how to make a great cast by watching someone without yet being able to perform it myself. Maybe I haven't even tried to perform at all. Still understandung the how is learning to me.

Cognitive Stage of learning

And yet there is more consistency (closer to "permanent") in what I understand as is in my physical performance. The last one needs some training at times.

Associative/intermediate stage of learning

Depending on the level I am after it can require quite some regulary training also.

Aspiring to Autonomous stage of learning

All of your description describes the process of learning in accordance with the F&P model.

https://sportscienceinsider.com/stages-of-learning/

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

So if Bert Johansson stops training trout distance and as a consequence will drop in his level to some degree, it means he had not learnt the high level he had, right?

Not right.

Skills fade is also a recognised “thing” which has been mentioned before and is also extensively researched. There is a forgetting curve to match a learning curve.

There is a distinction between performance and learning which has been explained several times on here…it is a fundamental tenet of instructional theory and practice.

Because of this, a technique which maximises performance may not be a technique that maximises learning. This, I completely accept, may be counterintuitive if the distinction is not made or understood.

[Bernd Ziesche]

LEARNING – is ‘the more or less permanent change in behaviour that is reflected in a change in performance’ (Knapp).

PERFORMANCE – is a demonstration of the solving of a problem or task at a given moment in time.

Thus (according to those conclusions) you can't check the learning by watching performance. Performance as defined above is only about a moment in time, not controlling for a permanent change.

So how do you check for the learning success?

Let me guess this for Paul, by watching the loops on a small 2-d screen via a lousy video call connection, while your student casts in semi proper light conditions for filming his line.

Ok, I better add some smileys now.

So if I watch Bernd Johansson cast 140ft on YouTube, you would accept that as evidence that I had learned how to do it? I don’t think that you would.

I indeed would think you could have learned, that stepping back and forth is a valuable option in order to cast such far in heavy tail wind. Depending on how trained you are to learn from watching videos, there is more you could learn. In order to become able to self perform the technique, you'd have to perform a lot and probably compare many times or much better hire an instructor to finetune your performance and increasing your understanding of what else that video shows to those who know what to look for.
Will you ever reach Bernt's level?
Probably not. Your winters are too short. But you can learn from watching that video. Also you can forget again what you had learnt. But I dont think you ll ever forget, that stepping is an option. That you have learnt and it sticks.
Regards
B

[VGB]

So how do you check for the learning success?

By monitoring changes in performance over a period of time

In order to become able to self perform the technique, you'd have to perform a lot and probably compare many times or much better hire an instructor to finetune your performance and increasing your understanding of what else that video shows to those who know what to look for.

No problem with performing a lot over time with specialist help that directs your focus of attention and monitors your workload, sounds like a great idea. I wish we’d thought of that

But I dont think you ll ever forget, that stepping is an option. That you have learnt and it sticks.

Much like the coaches that think watching your back cast throws your tracking off, there are competitors that struggle with tracking during stepping. Why do you think that these high performers cannot make the change, what would you advise?

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

I like to measure performance improvements by introducing targets and games, measuring distance and carry. But I think there are things we can’t easily measure such as perceived effort and efficiency. Other successful measures are if they pass CI or MCI exams. And a big one for me is their feedback on how well they performed their casting on a fishing trip. I take a lot from that and that’s the focus most of my students have. How they coped with the wind, pressure shots and so on.

So some are measured, others independently assessed and the rest comes directly back from the student’s experiences.

It all needs to be noted and written down.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

I knew I could rely on Will Shaw

https://sportscienceinsider.com/knowled ... rformance/

[Bernd Ziesche]

So how do you check for the learning success?

By monitoring changes in performance over a period of time

In other words: you don't. If I remember correct, you told me, that your students come for one rather short lesson and then you may go fishing the rest of the day.

But I dont think you ll ever forget, that stepping is an option. That you have learnt and it sticks.

Much like the coaches that think watching your back cast throws your tracking off, there are competitors that struggle with tracking during stepping. Why do you think that these high performers cannot make the change, what would you advise?

I don't get your point. If watching your bc sets off your tracking, then you have poor performance. Same with stepping.
For stepping put a tight horizontal rope on head level and hang on a handle. Start stepping while moving the handle along the rope. Get into the right rythm of stepoing. Thats where most lose it.
Cheers
B

[Bernd Ziesche]

Paul,
Coaching for you is providing an exercise or drill. Then your student works with it 8 to 10h on his own. Now he tells you about what he thinks how he does or did.

For me coaching is me next the student and I judge the quality of success. Its me having the huge context to understand the level of success, not my student. That aside, its great, if he's happy. But he may, whike I am not yet!
Cheers
Bernd