Under estimating translational movement

[NM]

That also ties in with cast and release.

It does. I've just read parts of that old and very looong discussion. I think Mathias has posted some clips of him using a conventional rod turnover and a chop down cast&release typ cast. My 70s and 80s DH overhead fishing cast was of that latter type. Worked well.

[Phil Blackmar]

Yep we are very much on that same page, Nils. Happy New Year to you too by the way!

I also try to avoid the terms Stop and SLP. I agree there are things in there we don’t fully understand and my attention has shifted more towards MCL and immediately after as being more critical than immediately pre- and up to RSP, as a result of Merlin and Gordy’s analysis.

That also ties in with cast and release.

Cheers, Paul

Nils and Paul-

Could the confusion with SLP be that it is taken too rigidly and the importance of an SLP is only from MCL to ???? RSP or maybe even less? Could the importance of the stop be the timing of the acceleration to the stop that is more important than the stop itself?

in golf it has been said that there are different ways to swing and each way has it's own set of rules.The rules that are in common are fundamentals and the rest are important only to the particular style. For instance, a stroke that starts with less wrist hinge can have a higher ratio of translation to rotation than a stroke which begins with an opened up or laid back wrist set.

Attaching specific rules to styles is beneficial because certain styles can work better when moving between different set-ups of rod/line size, fly size/weight, wind etc,. Bill Gammel's graph is an example where the stroke gets longer the more the rod bends which can be a result of the distance of the cast or the flex of the rod which varies with the make-up of the size of the rod and corresponding line....


Thanks
Phil

[John Waters]

Could the confusion with SLP be that it is taken too rigidly and the importance of an SLP is only from MCL to ???? RSP or maybe even less? Could the importance of the stop be the timing of the acceleration to the stop that is more important than the stop itself?

Hi Phil,

SLP confuses me. Does it refer to the rod tip or the rod hand? If it is the former, what causes it if not the hand path? I understand we use a bendy rod (much bendier than a tennis racquet), but for any given rod and line length, is not the causal issue the hand path? A bit like counter flex for me, the mitigation of which is hand path. For distance casting I focus on both the acceleration achieved before the deceleration begins and the sequencing of the decelerations applied. Both the time interval and rod arc over which the deceleration occurs, is greater in distance casting than short line casting and if line acceleration is optimised, there is no conscious block or stop of the rod by the hand. Doing so negatively impacts your acceleration potential. For short line casting you decelerate over both a much shorter time interval and rod arc, hence you can include a conscious block or stop of the rod by the hand. Doing so does not negatively impact the acceleration potential needed for a short line, accurate cast

A very interesting discussion,

John

[Phil Blackmar]

Hi John,

SLP confuses me. Does it refer to the rod tip or the rod hand? If it is the former what causes it, if not the hand path? I understand we use a bend rod (much bendier than a tennis racquet, but for any given rod and line length, is not the causal issue the hand path? A bit like counter flex for me, the mitigation of which is hand path.

But isn't a hand path that produces an SLP over any given distance a function of rod bend and rotation? During acceleration, bending shortens the rod while rotation moves the rod tip up. So, one can cancel the other, add to it or lessen it????

For distance casting I focus on both the acceleration achieved before the deceleration begins and the sequencing of that deceleration. Both the time interval and rod arc over which the deceleration occurs, is greater in distance casting than short line casting and if line acceleration is optimised, there is no conscious block or stop of the rod by the hand. Doing so negatively impacts acceleration potential. For short line casting you decelerate over a much shorter time interval and rod arc and hence, can include a conscious block or stop of the rod by the hand. Doing so does not impact negatively impact acceleration potential needed for a short line, accurate cast

Can you say the top of the loop, the fly leg and the beginning of the nose, is a product of acceleration, especially rapid acceleration, and the bottom of the loop is a product of deceleration? A discrepancy would takes place when acceleration continues in a downward direction.


Thank you John

[John Waters]

Hi John,

SLP confuses me. Does it refer to the rod tip or the rod hand? If it is the former what causes it, if not the hand path? I understand we use a bend rod (much bendier than a tennis racquet, but for any given rod and line length, is not the causal issue the hand path? A bit like counter flex for me, the mitigation of which is hand path.

But isn't a hand path that produces an SLP over any given distance a function of rod bend and rotation? During acceleration, bending shortens the rod while rotation moves the rod tip up. So, one can cancel the other, add to it or lessen it????

For distance casting I focus on both the acceleration achieved before the deceleration begins and the sequencing of that deceleration. Both the time interval and rod arc over which the deceleration occurs, is greater in distance casting than short line casting and if line acceleration is optimised, there is no conscious block or stop of the rod by the hand. Doing so negatively impacts acceleration potential. For short line casting you decelerate over a much shorter time interval and rod arc and hence, can include a conscious block or stop of the rod by the hand. Doing so does not impact negatively impact acceleration potential needed for a short line, accurate cast

Can you say the top of the loop, the fly leg and the beginning of the nose, is a product of acceleration, especially rapid acceleration, and the bottom of the loop is a product of deceleration? A discrepancy would takes place when acceleration continues in a downward direction.


Thank you John

Hi Phil,

IMHO it is the opposite, i.e. the tip path, SLP or otherwise, is a function of the hand path for any given rod bend, line length or rotational arc width. It is always difficult to ensure two casts are exactly the same but let's assume we can set up two identical forward casts. Identical, increasing rod bend throughout the stroke length, identical forces acting on the rod tip and line, identical line trajectory, identical everything else. In the second cast the caster changes the hand path movement. That changed hand path will change the tip path, will it not? The issue I have with focusing on tip path is that no two casts are exactly the same, so focusing on an outcome like tip path is a cue you cannot effectively use, not the least reason being you can't see it. In contrast you can see the hand path and make accurate and effective adjustments during the cast. It would be possible for the reduction in chord length to cancel out any upward movement of the rod tip (irrespective of the cause of that upward movement) but have you not adjusted the rod hand path to create that upward movement of the rod tip? If so, why focus on tip path? The downward in front of the shoulder V shaped hand path pattern common amongst distance casters is such a hand path adjustment, but there are alternates.
I would agree with your loop segment statement, the loop shape we seek is a function of rod hand acceleration, but I would add rod hand trajectory as well. That's why I advocate both an inclining and accelerating rod hand path for distance.

John

[Paul Arden]

SLP is always the rod tip for me. So firstly it’s a matchstick man diagram to give instructors (and some students) an approximate understanding over what is going on in one limited perspective - the rod tip path during the Casting Stroke. It’s been an exceptionally powerful tool over the years and still is. The problem is that it can be taken too literally when in actual fact getting close to SLP (not just attaining it) will cause a rod tip/fly leg collision.

But that’s not my issue with it. My issue is it usually creates a more linear stroke (pattern) and even a stabbing attempt to control the rod tip path, in preference to a smooth application of force by applying torque.

Typically with a student 170 backcast I often see a sort of upwards stabbing motion at the end of the stroke (it can be there in OSD too). I know why it’s there. It’s there because the student wants to direct his tip path in a straight line to the target. However what is required in this cast is to rotate the rod through this position, and in the case of the 170 with force. The angle of the fly leg path has been set up prior to this point anyway. Undoing this stabbing movement takes a lot of work and requires the confidence that the loop will go where they want without it. The result is a better more powerful movement pattern which will unlock more carry.

The same applies to the forward cast too, or at least that needs to be explored. So my issue with talking about SLP is the movement pattern is modified to a less effective throwing pattern. With a more advanced student I think we need to get the patterning/sequencing in first and then modify it for tip path (by exploring loop shape) and not the other way around.

The Stop is another muddle and directly relates back to rod loading. It can result in too abrupt accelerations (the stop is actually a rapid acceleration to a stop). Yes it can be a quick fix but then it will raise its head as a problem later on. I’d rather have them focus on the acceleration and not the stop.

When I teach the “stop” in my more advanced lessons I teach stopless and pull back at the same time, and I make it clear that I use the other two almost exclusively. This then results in an exploration of movement and not a fixation on stopping the rod. We don’t need to stop for the rod to unload, we just need to slow. Rapid accelerations we sometimes want. But never at the expense of smoothness, unless we have a use for tailing loop! (Collapsed Cast, Mangrove Cast, Svirgolato )

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

SLP is always the rod tip for me. So firstly it’s a matchstick man diagram to give instructors (and some students) an approximate understanding over what is going on in one limited perspective - the rod tip path during the Casting Stroke. It’s been an exceptionally powerful tool over the years and still is.

https://sportscienceinsider.com/stages-of-learning/

The first phase is called the cognitive stage, also known as the novice phase of learning. During this stage of learning the performer is trying to work out what to do. The theory suggests learners attempt to cognitively understand the requirements and parameters of movements.

I use it to explain how you can change trajectories and planes in less than 30 seconds, it’s use is conceptual only and is not a cue. I’m not sure how many potential changes of hand path I would need to explain that concept to a novice and if they would still be there by the time I finished the explanation

But that’s not my issue with it. My issue is it usually creates a more linear stroke (pattern) and even a stabbing attempt to control the rod tip path, in preference to a smooth application of force by applying torque.

I agree, with beginners, I use the fly leg as a cue. I can’t see why you would want to teach distance casting at this stage. If you are teaching more competent casters, then these sort of concepts should be a long way behind them.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Hi Vince,

I’m happy to talk about tip path, loop shape and variable casting arc, but that’s usually quite a bit up the ladder for me. In the same way a student can make body adjustments by looking at the loop outcome, tip path is a result of this.

There is certainly understanding to be gained by considering tip path, and that is important. It’s the obsession with SLP and the movements made to try to form it is where I see the problem. I’d rather see body movements adjusted by the loop, instead of tip path, and all movements explored.

For me the SLP is a matchstick man filter for getting some concepts across. However I’ve come across many instructors who think SLP is a reality and not an Open University engineering type diagram. And that for me often results in putting the cart before the horse.

It’s 30C. Humid as hell. I’m going for a 2hr run.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

I agree with pretty much everything you say Paul, apart from the 2 hour run. I have to warm up to have a nap.

As you know, with a limited working memory capacity, you have to control the information flow to prevent overload otherwise, your student is drinking from a fire hose. Fly casting instruction across the board has a real problem in that it analyses each nugget of information until it is useless in any practical sense. This gives the impression that learning to fly cast requires exceptional intellect and skill which is obviously bollox if you meet us

regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

One lap down… I prefer to make trajectory adjustments by moving back and forward targets around, aligning 180 or aeroplane wings.

Later mate.
Paul