Under estimating translational movement

[Phil Blackmar]

Hi Phil, I don’t think that the primary objective of the casting stroke is to generate speed. I think that is the secondary objective. The primary one as I see it is to shape the loop.

An interesting experiment is to play with perceived force. Cast or carry at 100%, 90%, 80%, 70% force and so on. When considering carry, reducing the force will tighten the loop for a given carry length (because it reduces counterflex), as long as fast hauling is maintained, this tighter loop can open the door to a longer carry.

Cheers, Paul

I totally get that Paul, and it is something I am guilty of fishing in the wind and with heavy flies quite often. Too much power and too early as well for the required cast.

I'm just trying to understand the 170. When you push the rod tip "over the fence", aren't you doing so with considerable force as opposed to following thru that direction?

Thanis Paul
Happy New Year

[Paul Arden]

Hi George,

I agree that the roll cast needs it. It puts more line behind the rod tip and helps straighten tip path.

I don’t use Drag for an accuracy stroke. I want to overpower a slightly wider loop that hangs as opposed to kicks. Leader-only casts are very wristy for me and have no Drag either.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Hi Phil, yes in my mind I hit it when it’s the other side of the fence. I look up for the top third of the rod coming into view.

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

Hi Paul

Thanks. That's what I thought, it's the only way to make your torque delivery.

[Phil Blackmar]

Hello again Paul.

I just wanted to explain what I meant in my post yesterday when referring to a braced stop. The longer the stroke gets, the more in control or patient you have to be with timing. As you mentioned, you wait until you can see the top third of the rod and you often refer to going really slow until the correct moment. When I get off, and I suspect it's the same for many others, I hit or apply too much force too early. Many factors can conspire to make this happen such as pressure in competition, wind, size of rod or fly, tough shot at a great fish etc,

I used the braced stop as a means of moving my timing forward in my stroke. By trying to abruptly stop the rod at 10 or so yet put a lot of force into the cast, it moved my application of speed. It worked very well too. This morning I was able to get over the fence without giving it up too early. My questions were merely asking about the similarities and differences of the two finishes to better understand how to use one to get the other.....

More of a training or practice reference than a competition cast..'

Thanks again
Phil

[Paul Arden]

Hi Phil,

Yes I understand. Thanks for the clarification. You are correct that the stop as we often describe it is really a rapid acceleration to a stop. And that key is the acceleration timing and position.

I think for your purposes however “stopless” is better. I have a good exercise to targets. 3 stops – hard stop, stopless and pull-back. I’d play with these at variable target distances. I hardly ever use the hard stop and for shots I’m stopless (it generates higher line speed and protects the rod tip).

What I would recommend is to develop the stopless delivery so that it becomes automatic. The timing needs to occur this way too. Working through the three stops exercise should help develop this and the timing from the hard stop should transfer over to stopless acceleration.

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

Paul

Distance casting is so much like golf. One minute you’re on top of the world and then you lose it. Feel keys and routines are so important in getting it back quickly.

I did as you suggested and it worked nicely. Thank you.

I’m still curious about the difference in pushing the rod tip over at the end of the stroke vs hitting a tennis ball at a target. I guess it’s due to the rod bending so much so that even tho you are rotating the handle down, the lag in the tip allows it to work in a straight line until it quickly changes direction.

Best
Phil

[Paul Arden]

Hi Phil,

Yes that’s how I see it. That’s one reason why it’s so much later. The other, I think, is because for some of this hit at least, the rod is unloading. One or other or both is why we are so much later with the rapid force application.

But I do think that the way to play with it, is to pick later and later cues for yourself. The why it works can come later. It has usually been this way.

Cheers, Paul

[NM]

You are correct that the stop as we often describe it is really a rapid acceleration to a stop. And that key is the acceleration timing and position.

Paul, I do like that you are stressing acceleration in your description of the “stop.” A hard stop should feel like that, and that we are turning over the rod tip with the wrist against a blocked, or braced, forearm. Unfortunately, I think we now know, thanks to Gordy’s measurements, that as discussed in the Rod unloading during acceleration - ... ops.co.uk) max angular velocity happens much earlier in the stroke than we perceive it (in a distance cast, when the rod is at or close to perpendicular) and that your “hit” takes place while the rod butt is actually decelerating and rod is unloading. I don’t think we yet fully understand everything about why that is the case, including the role SDM plays, but I think it is an established fact that while we try to, and feel like we are, accelerating the rod turnover we are in fact decelerate the rod butt rotation (but accelerating the movement of the rod tip in the direction of the cast).

This difference between what we feel we are doing, and try to do, and what’s actually happening causes some difficulties for how to describe and teach these things. It could be interesting, including as a follow up on Bernd’s teaching concepts, to discuss the concrete concepts, analogies, and cues we use for teaching things like the stop, loop control etc. How does the students understand these terms and analogies? And are they and instilling the mental images in their minds? I try to avoid terms like the stop (and SLP).


George,
I agree, the importance of translation is often underestimated. I prefer a long and relaxed casting stroke with a lot of translation for both tournament distance casting and fishing, with variations of the 170 being my go-to fishing stroke. And you are right, use the term translation for translation only (which is how Mathias is using it in Norwegian in that video) while we in fact are both rotating and translation during most of the stroke as in #3 in Paul’s drawing. The real issue is sequencing of the body movements, and hand path. I don’t use the term translation when teaching but are instead talking about starting the cast by pulling/dragging the rod (and line) leading with the lower body and shoulder rotation, and then towards the latter part of the stroke forcefully turning, or flipping, over the rod tip with the arm and wrist.

Happy new year,
Nils

[Paul Arden]

Yep we are very much on that same page, Nils. Happy New Year to you too by the way!

I also try to avoid the terms Stop and SLP. I agree there are things in there we don’t fully understand and my attention has shifted more towards MCL and immediately after as being more critical than immediately pre- and up to RSP, as a result of Merlin and Gordy’s analysis.

That also ties in with cast and release.

Cheers, Paul