Stop and SLP discussion

[VGB]

Those students I had sitting in a wheelchair could not aim for 100m sprints, but they did just fine in fly casting.

But they could see.

I have a pretty different view on this. Just like fish, too we sometimes use one, sometimes a mix of several senses. But it is done for proper reason, that athletes (and by far not only athletes) at times shut down/block senses to support using the one, which matters most within a task.

No we don’t, we fuze the best available information from the available senses.

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

Seems feel matters a lot to those golf experts.

Yes.

Experts training for performance in competition.

Feel is real, feel is not real has been debated in golf for donkeys years

This feel thing obviously touches a nerve.

[VGB]

This feel thing obviously touches a nerve.

Do you really feel that?

[Bernd Ziesche]

Do you think it’s easier to sit on a production line doing the same thing over and over again, or come up with a different solution when there’s a continually changing task and environment, like fishing?

Hi Vince,
This thread is about teaching fly casting in the first place, not fishing in a difficult surroundings situation. I added, that using feel in teaching is a valuable tool. One that might be underestimated by some instructors limitating their tool box by not adding feel. Let's agree to disagree in feel being valuable in teaching.

I have a pretty different view on this. Just like fish, too we sometimes use one, sometimes a mix of several senses. But it is done for proper reason, that athletes (and by far not only athletes) at times shut down/block senses to support using the one, which matters most within a task.

No we don’t, we fuze the best available information from the available senses.

https://www.integratedtreatmentservices ... at-a-time/
Here is an article related on scienctific studies (as you like them) saying basically the same what I said.
It's not one way as you put it. It's sometimes using all senses and sometimes focussing on just one. And of course everything in between.
I think this is important to understand. Focussing on SLP easily may blind the student to see other important keys. It's my job to be aware and support to check for what matters/helps most in a moment of striving for proper progress. In my opinion it's quite a shortcoming to think, that the student will automatically fuze/pick the best information received by every single sense all the time. Not what I experienced.
Cheers
Bernd

[Stoatstail50]

To avoid sensory overload, only one modality is processed consciously by the brain (though subconsciously a great amount of information may get in – ‘accumulation of unknown knowing’ – Williams 1996).

This is from your paper on autism Bernd.

Feel is real for me but I don’t use it when I’m trying to get someone to consciously process using another modality. In this case vision. I do this to avoid cognitive overload. I think this has been said enough now.

I have had the great privilege to have fished with autistic kids and adults, it is not the same as working with neurotypical or able bodied students.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Feel is real for me but I don’t use it when I’m trying to get someone to consciously process using another modality. In this case vision.

Mark,
That makes sense to me. But Vince sais:

we fuze the best available information from the available senses.

If this is correct in general, you couldn't have your student focussing on vision, because he'd pick what seems important to HIM from all the information available by all senses.
No doubt we can and do use multi sensory often.
But that doesn't tell why explaining and demonstrating at the same time proves the group to be splitable in those primarly listening and those primarly watching as soon as demo and explanation differ.
In fact it always seemed to me, that many students don't hear me (and especially don't listen) when I throw looong pointy loops in the air. The fascination about the loops seems to narrow what source of information is picked.
As a consequence I learnt to best support the information I want them to get to be the one they focus on!

Back to SLP... Do I want my students trying to watch their tip path to be straight, when yet they cant see it in 2d and in a too high speed anyway? No. So I prefer not to bring their focus too much on it.

Agree, that autistic ppl. are slightly different in focussing. I was teaching one (son of my exgf) for some years. My exp. is, that he could focus excellent.
Cheers
B

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

This thread is about teaching fly casting in the first place, not fishing in a difficult surroundings situation. I added, that using feel in teaching is a valuable tool. One that might be underestimated by some instructors limitating their tool box by not adding feel. Let's agree to disagree in feel being valuable in teaching.

What is a difficult situation for a beginner? I’ve just been out casting, using both hands, hauled and unhauled overhead casts. Can you tell me what I should have felt?

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

I have a pretty different view on this. Just like fish, too we sometimes use one, sometimes a mix of several senses."………. It's sometimes using all senses and sometimes focussing on just one. And of course everything in between.
I think this is important to understand. Focussing on SLP easily may blind the student to see other important keys. It's my job to be aware and support to check for what matters/helps most in a moment of striving for proper progress. In my opinion it's quite a shortcoming to think, that the student will automatically fuze/pick the best information received by every single sense all the time. Not what I experienced.

You need to watch this again Bernd

https://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/vi ... 116#p78776

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

What you are looking for Bernd is called Selective Attention. It’s not the same as focus of attention. it’s about how we filter sensory information for processing into memory.

Novices don’t know where the richest sources of sensory information are so, left to their own devices, they try to process as much as they can. This clogs up the pathway from first sense to short term, processing memory and on into long term memory.

Short term or working memory has a limit as to what can be kept in there at any one time. This is where Millers magic number seven applies. If you fill it up and keep trying to put more in, the brain randomly discards contents to make space and this makes what is learned a bit random or unpredictable.

The implications of this for instructors are twofold, one is that we need to limit or control the rate of the amount of information we allow into short term memory and the second is that we have, in that process, to prioritise the information we do deliver. By doing that we make it easier for a learner to process relevant information into long term memory.

This is a way of reducing cognitive load.

[VGB]

That makes sense to me. But Vince sais:

we fuze the best available information from the available senses.

If this is correct in general, you couldn't have your student focussing on vision, because he'd pick what seems important to HIM from all the information available by all senses.

Bernd, I tell them what I want them to look at and what they should expect to see if they meet the objective, you wouldn’t be doing your job as an instructor if you left them gazing meaninglessly into the distance. Fusing sensory information is autonomous behaviour, not a characteristic of cognitive and associative learning

https://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/vi ... 116#p78777

Regards

Vince