Teaching concepts revisited

[NM]

Since the new Stop and SLP discussion has already morphed from teaching to the physics of the stop, I’ll think I want to start a new Teaching Concept tread, which was my earlier idea. I was planning to reopen the rod unloading during acceleration discussion and share as promised some more experiments with rotating rods at various stiffness without a line to see how the MAV position change with the stiffness of the rod. That might help shed some more light on why MAV is effectively is early in the stroke and before we the hit/powersnap/ accelerate the rod into the stop, or whatever…

For this tread in the teaching section, I tough it would be interesting, as I alluded to in https://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/vi ... =40#p78159, to discuss the concepts, analogies, and cues we use for teaching fly casting (but not the physics of it), including things like the stop, SLP, how to shape tight and open loops control the use of the wrist, arm and hand path and pulling/pushing How does the students understand these terms and analogies? And are they and instilling in their minds the mental images we want? I find that the interplay of these concepts of the create problems for casting students, and in particular for those intermediate students that have picked up bits and pieces in an incoherent manner from multiple sources without understanding how things hang together, or what depends on what. As Phil noted in https://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/vi ... =50#p78178
In golf there’s different ways to swing and each has it’s own set of rules. Something similar is the case for fly casting, I think.

To start off the discussion, I found Vince and Pom's comments on the powersnap in the stop revisited tread and how that concept led them down the wrong track very interesting. They understood the powersnap to be very different from what Joan intended, I think, and from how I read her discussion of it in her book. And I suspect it is the power term and the interaction of it with the stop idea, or as she describes it in her book, the acceleration with force to a sudden stop. In her book she did suggest some alternatives to the PowerSnap term, including turnover and turnover arc, and explains that it is a thump/wrist movement at the end of the cast (and similar to how Jim Green described the “secrete” end of his stroke. I guess others have called it squeeze to a stop). She also related the size of the turnover arc to the size of the loop (no mentioning of SLP), which I guess is similar to Bernd’s argument that in https://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/vi ... 883#p70244 that a “small arc results in a tight loop.” I know which term I prefer.

I have serious issues with the stop as a teaching concept. It is a recipe for a disaster (including lack of line speed, tails, and tailing tendencies), and in particular when you interact it with ideas such as you must use no, or, a stiff wrist, and SLP. The stop for many literally mean that they should slam the brakes and stop the rod instead of just turning it over (for a short accuracy style cast, against a blocked forearm). My issue with the teaching of SLP is the same as Paul’s, that “it usually creates a more linear stroke (pattern) and even a stabbing attempt to control the rod tip path” like how many teachers demo a (teachers') tail. In fact, that is of the how it is of the taught, with the use of figures like this one:

And I guess that is what lead to this idea that you had to match the arc to the bend in the rod in order to form a tight loop. I don’t think I have ever done that. And I used to be known to be casting some very tight loops at times, (when I want) though.

[John Waters]

Great post Nils,

RE cues: for what it is worth I use a number of internal cues, external cues and targeted mental imagery.

John

[John Waters]

Hi Nils,

You asked what cues people use. These are some of the ones I use, not a complete list but for what it is worth, I use a number of internal cues, external cues and targeted mental imagery.

Some distance casting examples being;

1. Cues

Braking foot: The earth grab your foot
Hit the curb
Swing over left cone
Rotation: Armpit hits a horizontal rod
Armpit points fly leg
Swivel the power foot heel
torso is a corkscrew
Stepping: 3 hand claps
Rod hand arm: Flail over
Trebuchet
Patterning: Throw the reel
Wind up and release

2. Imagery:

acceleration and braking vision

Accuracy casting examples are fewer because the movement is greatly reduced compared to distance. Some are;

Loop bisects target
Push a tack fully into the cork with thumb
Heel of hand is concrete

I'll leave the descriptions of each to previous posts here on casting movement patterning. The point is they must be relevant, specific and illustrative of the movement you are trying to internalise. I want them to be personalised to the student, reflecting what he/she wishes to accomplish.

John

[Stoatstail50]

And I guess that is what lead to this idea that you had to match the arc to the bend in the rod in order to form a tight loop. I don’t think I have ever done that.

I have just fainted

[Graeme H]

Thanks for the new thread Nils.

I'll follow along with interest but I rarely try to teach someone to "stop the rod" during the cast, nor do I try to teach them to make the rod tip follow a straight path. I tend to give them tasks which when completed, result in those actions as a consequence.

In other words: I rarely tell them how to do something. I let them work out how to achieve the task I've set in a manner that suits their own motor skills adaptations.

By example and as noted in the other thread, if the student isn't stopping the rod in the way I'd like them to, I might ask them to move the rod slightly towards the opposite direction as soon as they've completed the cast. By default, that MUST stop the rod, but they've done it without me instructing them to "stop the rod". All I did was ask them to complete a task.

(This answer is unfortunately not capturing the lessons I've given prior to this point in a session. There are usually other tasks during the lesson which have negated the need to resort to this task.)

Cheers,
Graeme

[VGB]

Morning All

For the record, I have no problem with physics but if you are going to conduct “human in the loop” analyses, you need to understand the variability of human behaviours and learning theory of the most complex part and account for it. It is not easy to do, being very data intensive, but Ulrik et al have done that to a very high standard in “An Initial Study on the Coordination of Rod and Line Hauling Movements in Distance Fly Casting.

The problem with “Powersnap” is the mental imagery that the term creates, especially when used in conjunction with other terminology such as “hard stop”. When your only reference is the written word, the imagination can run wild and it does. Video is a better medium for self learning but the feedback is missing and if something is misunderstood then there’s no means of correction.

And I guess that is what lead to this idea that you had to match the arc to the bend in the rod in order to form a tight loop. I don’t think I have ever done that.

I have no idea what that is intended to mean, so have never used it. SLP as mentioned in the earlier posts is just a lead in to exploring the available solution space of trajectories and planes, I don’t dwell on it. I have little use for arc unless it’s for loop shaping. For longer lengths of line and unhauled casts, I want the tip moving over a longer path and arc is along for the ride, a longer translation of the tip will increase the arc.

However, I don’t look for solutions that are rod only. If I want the tip moving further, it means opening up the body movement; weight shifting, rotations and limb extensions. I don’t use complex explanations, I’ll take the student into a slow motion pantomime with a straight line reference (roof line, brick line, goal posts) and we dance matrix style. Then the student can explore with short lengths of line, gradually increasing the envelope as they become more proficient.

I’ve never seen “it usually creates a more linear stroke (pattern) and even a stabbing attempt to control the rod tip path”, possibly because the emphasis on body movement takes this out, I don’t know.

This leads me onto 2 of my instructosphere bitches, firstly language. The terminology that we use is instructor speak and it is entirely fixated about the rod as a physical reference frame. For me, the rod is a tool not a goal, I’m teaching people. I understand that the language allows instructors to speak to each other but students aren’t generally au fait with our arcane practices. I keep instructor speak out of the lesson as much as possible.

Secondly, classification of students as novices, intermediaries and experts. They can either perform the skill competently, occasionally with a lot of effort or not at all which is a layman’s description of the F&P learning model. If you align the F&P description with novice, intermediate and expert, I could probably live with that.

I know I said 2 bitches but I have a late breaking 3rd. Starting discussions without a teaching/casting objectives and a description of the constraints. We start with an infinite number of possible outcomes, we should know what we are trying to achieve.

And finally, getting back to the point , I don’t use stop in the traditional sense. The stop for me is when the rod is no longer moving which is after loop shaping. If students are wafting, I want them to still be accelerating as the rod tip comes off the intended direction of the cast.

I’ll have to come back to cues, I have to go out now, I’m getting that look which says; I’m ready to go out and you are still in pyjamas.

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

A long time ago Nils, I did a voxpop survey with as many non anglers I could find on the words we regularly use when we teach.

I don’t think it will come as a surprise to you to discover that what we think a word like “Loop” or “Load” or “accelerate” means in the context of a lesson, is not what a non caster understands it to mean.

For me, in the bulk of these teaching threads, I look to the likely behaviour of recreational anglers…not experts not world champ class casters…all my work is at the bottom of the pile. Down here I have to ask casters to look at “the shape of the line” because a “loop”, for many, is a closed circle. So, if you ask them to look at the loop….they can’t see one.

“Load” or “accelerate” both drive an increase in force. Apply more weight, go faster. This might be necessary in some circs but for the most part I’m usually trying to get them to apply less force, not more. These terms rarely if ever appear in a lesson for me. It is exactly the same with “powersnap” this is not exactly a smooth, foot off the gas term is it ?

And I do what Graeme does.

[John Waters]

What cues do you use Graeme for short line accuracy and long line distance?

John

[VGB]

I think Graeme is getting his party frock on for his birthday . For me John, it’s about context. A small stream angler will be taught control with the line running close to the water, constraints are overhead cover. The dry fly presentation will be fly first up to about 20ft, holding line off the water. If the constraints also include hazards behind, a discrete target for the back cast is also vital. Nymph is similar but with a longer, smoother stroke being built in, to stop the fly kicking around. A distance cast is 30-40 ft under these conditions and holding the line off the water becomes a luxury. If you are in pocket water, the take is usually instant or not at all.

Chalkstreams remove many of the constraints and there’s not a huge difference between accuracy and distance, you fish a range up to 50ftish. The casts have to be accurate to sighted fish, in a food rich environment, they don’t move far. Mark’s dance is the basis for almost all of these lessons and I’m teaching fluid movement because most students are locked into position between their casting shoulder and their feet.

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

That might help shed some more light on why MAV is effectively is early in the stroke and before we the hit/powersnap/ accelerate the rod into the stop, or whatever…

Hi Nils,
it seemed to me the term "powersnap" was mainly made famous by Joan Wulff.
She teached it in a way, that to me it was all about what I teach as "rotation at the right time". Since Joan used it when aiming for tight loops in distance casting, I shall call it rotation towards the end of the stroke (rod hand path). With this technique (rotation towards the end) MAV has to happen near the end of the stroke, not early.

If you accelerate into the stop, how can MAV coming by rotation take place early.

I don't think to remember that matching the CA charts.
In fact I think MAV took place towards the end of the stroke according to the charts.

Seems we are not on the same page here, yet. Can you describe where along the rod hand path MAV takes place in your findings?
Thanks,
Bernd
P.s.: I hope you have a fire inside. Seems extremely cold in Norway!