Teaching concepts revisited

[Bernd Ziesche]

MAV is much earlier than you think It is for a distance at or close to where the rod is perpendicular to the direction of the casting direction, and for short accuracy style cast even much earlier than that, as you can see from the below pictures from the attachments I shared in that old discussion.

Morning Nils,
Aitor and I made some decent slomos of me casting a broomstick-rod some time ago. I remember, that loop formation started, where I would have expected it to start. I thought the start of loop formation would be MAV. The rest of arc would be for deceleration = the stop.
Does that make sense?

I wonder what your software would put out for that old video. Or if MAV matches the start of loop formation for a broomstick cast?

If that matches, then the answer tonour struggles in fully understanding must be in the difference which rod flex brings in....

For me the stop is about positioning of RSP1 where I want it. I need deceleration to ....
Regards
Bernd

[Graeme H]

What cues do you use Graeme for short line accuracy and long line distance?

John

Hi John,

I’m afraid the question isn’t making sense to me. Sorry.

Cheers, Graeme

[NM]

MAV is much earlier than you think It is for a distance at or close to where the rod is perpendicular to the direction of the casting direction, and for short accuracy style cast even much earlier than that, as you can see from the below pictures from the attachments I shared in that old discussion.

Morning Nils,
Aitor and I made some decent slomos of me casting a broomstick-rod some time ago. I remember, that loop formation started, where I would have expected it to start. I thought the start of loop formation would be MAV. The rest of arc would be for deceleration = the stop.
Does that make sense?

I wonder what your software would put out for that old video. Or if MAV matches the start of loop formation for a broomstick cast?

If that matches, then the answer tonour struggles in fully understanding must be in the difference which rod flex brings in....

For me the stop is about positioning of RSP1 where I want it. I need deceleration to ....
Regards
Bernd

Bernd
The reason why rod butt MAV is that early and we are actually decelerating the rod butt when we actively try to do the opposite was the topic of that rod unloading during acceleration discussion. And yes The rod bending matters for that. How, and how the position of MAV would differ between casting a broomstick and a very flexible rod was left pending.I have some results on that but need to finalize my analysis of the videos before I can share anything.

For this discussion, I think we have take it as an established fact that MAV is that early and that the deceleration we have measured, including with the CA, is not caused by us actively trying to stop the rod. The question for this discussion is then, how should we teach and talk about these things when what we feel and think we do differs from what’s actually is happening?

[Torsten]

And I guess that is what lead to this idea that you had to match the arc to the bend in the rod in order to form a tight loop. I don’t think I have ever done that. And I used to be known to be casting some very tight loops at times, (when I want) though.

Hi Nils,

so you're casting always with a constant arc (?) Do you mean fly casting for fishing or fishing unrelated tournament casting?

Greetings,
Torsten

[Stoatstail50]

And I guess that is what lead to this idea that you had to match the arc to the bend in the rod in order to form a tight loop. I don’t think I have ever done that. And I used to be known to be casting some very tight loops at times, (when I want) though.

Hi Nils,

so you're casting always with a constant arc (?) Do you mean fly casting for fishing or fishing unrelated tournament casting?

Greetings,
Torsten

I’m with Nils. I’ve never done it either. In fact, if arc is just the angular change in position of the rod, I’d go as far as saying no one matches arc to the bend in the rod in any conscious kind of way….even though they say they do

This is because there is no exclusive binary relationship between arc and bend which determines tip path. Rotation, translation, force and the material properties of the rod in combo do that. Find Bernds broomstick vids to check how matching arc to bend works when there’s no bend.

[VGB]

I think we have take it as an established fact that MAV is that early and that the deceleration we have measured, including with the CA, is not caused by us actively trying to stop the rod. The question for this discussion is then, how should we teach and talk about these things when what we feel and think we do differs from what’s actually is happening?

I have no idea to determine where any of these points are in real time and if I could detect them, I’m not sure that it’s possible to react quickly enough to alter them. If you want to dive deep into the topic, it’s worth wrapping your head around Schmidt’s Schema theory, although open loop processes are only useful if you have learned the core motor control programmes in the first place.

This of course takes us back to our common question; are we talking about learning or performing?

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

What cues do you use Graeme for short line accuracy and long line distance?

John

Hi John,

I’m afraid the question isn’t making sense to me. Sorry.

Cheers, Graeme

Hi Graeme,

The cues I refer to are the words and actions that direct the attention of the student to learn or perform a task. e.g. any visual, verbal or physical foci you use when teaching students to improve their casting accuracy or increase their casting distance.

Thanks,

John

[John Waters]

Morning All

For the record, I have no problem with physics but if you are going to conduct “human in the loop” analyses, you need to understand the variability of human behaviours and learning theory of the most complex part and account for it.

I would add that you need to understand the difference between mechanics and biomechanics as well.

So would I,

John

[Paul Arden]

Morning Paul

Generally, I see them trying to fish in the vertical plane because that’s the only thing they know and getting in an awful mess.

Regards

Vince

Different demographics. I have a lot of saltwater guys who’s only stroke is 30 degrees off vertical. Which I don’t have a problem with in itself, but I would like them to be able to cast in all planes including the vertical.

Cheers, Paul

[Graeme H]

Hi Graeme,

The cues I refer to are the words and actions that direct the attention of the student to learn or perform a task. e.g. any visual, verbal or physical foci you use when teaching students to improve their casting accuracy or increase their casting distance.

Thanks,

John

Ah, okay, I get what you mean now.

I don’t have a set of cues that I use all the time. I tend to use analogies that are related to the experiences that the student has revealed to me during the lesson.

To be honest, I have had very very few students asking to improve their accuracy casting. The only people I know of who want to improve their accuracy are CI candidates and competition casters. There are none of the latter here in WA, and only three CI candidates here.

Casters looking for a bit more distance are common, but specifically distance casting? Again, it’s CI candidates. All the others are fishermen who want to improve their general casting. For a bit more distance, I focus their efforts on throwing their tightest loops a little bit further. A foot or two at a time.

If they have certain deficiencies like inadequate translation, I’ll work on those individually.

I know this is not quite what you’re asking, but I really don’t deliver a set lesson plan. I’m guided by my students.

Cheers, Graeme