Movement Skills Overview

[John Waters]

That’s an important teaching drill Paul. Using progressive hand speed is good for skill retention. I agree with you that you learn movement patterning best at sub-optimal speed. When fishing I don’t maximise my hand speed, but do so in casting, so I need drills that train for that 100 % outcome. Do you have different drills for shooting head instruction compared to MED drills? I don’t but vary stepping range for MED.

John

[VGB]

That was similar to my thoughts Paul, a conjunction of Fitts Law and carrying out work on the line is the scientific underpinning . However, giving science lessons as well as trying to teach the student a movement skill is an enormous cognitive load for both of us. All of us left a days first aid lesson tired yesterday but for me it was a refresher course, I’ve been doing similar courses for over 45 years and it is still hard work. Managing cognitive load is a massive part of what we do which was added to by a bit of dissonance that I may discuss later.

In almost every case with self taught students, I will see a caster that has an open back cast, tailing forward cast that has been engrained over a decade or more. I’ve described the straight fly leg, external cue and body movement stance built around the dance and triangle methods. All of which will be Old Way/New Way, the practice drills will be designed around expanding the range of movement from their safe space and based upon implicit learning. The lesson is one teaching technique or another but is leveraging off a blend of techniques introduced on the first page of this thread.

I am intrigued by your early introduction of hauling and might see if I can find a Guinea pig to test it on. It certainly lends itself to the use of both hands for fishing which I want to bring into my lessons.

I’ve continued my review of video lessons and seen an example where the “student” is already a very accomplished caster. They adopt a square stance and are single handed casting an assessment length of line. To achieve the work on the line, they are clearly breaking the wrist because physically it’s the only way to achieve the stroke length. Would fault based instruction try to correct this fault in a faultless outcome?

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Hi John,

I don’t teach shooting heads very often. I rarely get asked. I also rarely fish them myself. The last time would have been when fishing with Bernd in Germany, 13 or 14 years ago. That may actually have been the only time I’ve fished them, apart from a brief foray when I was 15.

I work with different strokes OSD/170, playing with an early release timing, and experimenting with overhang. I don’t teach it at the top level, and I’ve never performed in these events at the top level, so I wouldn’t really feel able.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Hi Vince,

What I particularly like about starting someone out with the Triangle Method, is that it lends itself very well to introducing hauling. Since the student has started his casting with this drill, returning to it puts them back inside their comfort zone. By this time they should be able to do the Triangle drill, almost quite casually. And then, all they need to do, is talk to their line hand… 1, 2, 3, 5. Starting off just 1 for the first casts. Then 1&2 etc.

Even if they don’t get it, it’s ok. Because they will have plenty of time to practise before the next lesson. Mostly they will get it. I don’t introduce it always in the first lesson. That depends on how things are going. If I don’t introduce it in the first lesson, I will do so near the beginning of the second lesson. I don’t know the exact numbers but significantly more than half get taught the double haul in their first lesson.

I don’t think of “breaking the wrist” as a fault. In fact I think not using the wrist is a fault!! It’s possible to cast this way but it’s more effort to drive the rod with the forearm, than to brake the forearm and flip the wrist. Of course it’s possible to use too much wrist…

Cognitive load is I think is out no1 concern. I used to spend my lessons constantly wondering if I was teaching too much. The video recordings have been a Godsend. What I have to do sometimes is highlight the important parts in the student’s after-lesson notes and structure the drills and order them in importance.

Very exciting… I have a lesson coming up in 20 minutes. One of my students in Senegal (an Aussie) is having a lesson together with one of my students from LA, who is visiting Senegal! I’ve been teach both of them separately for over a year now. I think this will be a lot of fun

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Hi Paul

I agree with you about the wrist, I prefer to think of it as wrist control. My observation is that having the external visual cue is key to developing that control and that the fly leg layout works well because there is a degree of permanence in the outcome to allow the caster to make obtain some knowledge of performance and make appropriate adjustment, a quick link might be appropriate here:

https://skillacquisition.weebly.com/kno ... sults.html

For cognitive load, I'm looking for the furrowed brow or signs of stress. I used to see the 1000 yard stare and think that was a sign of overload but think that sometimes the caster is just internalising a concept and I no longer interfere, I let them work through it.

Have you tried getting your 2 casters to explain to the other what they have seen, I think peer review could be interesting?

regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Hi Vince,

My observation is that having the external visual cue is key to developing that control and that the fly leg layout works well because there is a degree of permanence in the outcome to allow the caster to make obtain some knowledge of performance and make appropriate adjustment

No arguments from me. Exploring within constraints is the key here. That’s why I like those three loop control exercises (& a chainsaw) that I uploaded some months back. Exploring these with variable line lengths is key and they can figure out how their body and rod interacts to shape loops. I think it’s better to explore all movement rather that be told how to move. All that does is have them focus internally.

For cognitive load, I'm looking for the furrowed brow or signs of stress.

Generally when I see steam coming out of their ears I know I’ve gone too far. Back to the recording this takes the pressure off them too. They don’t have to try to remember everything or get stressed about it, because they can revisit it again later. And ask questions afterwards of course.

Have you tried getting your 2 casters to explain to the other what they have seen, I think peer review could be interesting?

That was an excellent meet. They got along as I expected. Both very nice people, similar casting level and both engineers by trade. A really enjoyable meeting.

It was very interesting for me to hear their discussions. I know them both very well of course. Mark has had 14 lessons and David 17. They both train 8-10 hrs between lessons and are both excellent casters now as you’d expect. We were doing aeriel snaps on Speys which was great fun.

It was really nice to see them together.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Thanks Paul,

I now use the same drills and movement for both. I used to increase the hand speed for the MED but no longer do. I would for very short head lengths, but that is now the exception for my drills. Increasing the hand speed for the MED meant I was generating less than optimal speed for shooting heads greater than 15 metres in length. Took me a while to understand that.

John

[Paul Arden]

Hi John,

By increasing hand speed, at which part of the stroke, John? And is this rotational speed, translational, or both?

I think there is quite a lot of fine tuning in there.

What drills do you use? I have a Launch Drill that I use that is ground to ground. The first part of the stroke is executed in slow motion, getting underneath the rod and then launching up from the front foot to assist rod turnover.

I’m not a believer in generating speed at the beginning of the stroke, but later, near the end. Particularly with a long carry.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Hi Paul,

For long line casting, I want the caster to achieve their maximum linear joint velocity and maximum angular velocity of their rod side and also their haul hand. Key joints are hip, shoulder, elbow and wrist, each are key determinants of line speed. For short line casts, maximum hand speed is not a requirement of performance, shoulder, elbow and wrist rotational movement being the focus. In that case those joints provide the structure for a sub-optimal hand speed requirement. The hand/rod must move forward in distance casting, but the issue is how that result is best generated. The problem with focusing on translation is the common association with moving the rod hand/rod in front of the shoulder on the delivery cast, and not capitalising on the benefits of having body rotation generate the linear movement of the hand/rod. All rod linear/translation movement range and speed should be generated by other joint rotation. Velocity needs to be viewed as both rotational and translational, but the driver is solely rotational.

It is much more than fine tuning, the fine tuning comes after the changed model is internalised and In my experience is generally only associated with the elbow and hand orientation before release. One cue I use for that is moving on a spiral staircase. I want all the focus to be on hand movement behind the shoulder so use a lot of weighted balls, bands and throwing drills, including a ball launcher, as popular for dog walkers, against a ball. I too want them to maximise their accelerated hand path but increase that acceleration from zero to max mostly behind the shoulder, forward of the shoulder is mostly follow through. I use drills that focus on squaring the shoulders with the arm behind and use footwork to create that. Stepping is an essential, but the left leg (for a right hand caster) needs to both force that position and block the acceleration of the right side joints. That position also forces the body underneath the rod. I want them to achieve that well before the rod hand moves past the shoulder, not as most do and get under the rod after it has passed the shoulder. I want the first part of the stroke to be explosive. I know that differs from the convention, but I don't believe it adversely impacts line shape e.g., tailing loops. The rod aids that outcome. You can instruct an explosive, behind the shoulder movement profile if you base that instruction upon stretch and release concept of agonist and antagonist musculature. Drills need to accentuate the accelerate/braking potential of the body, bands and weights can achieve that if based on rotation, not translation. The rod side forearm flails over using internal rotation so the more explosive that can be achieved the further the cast will go. One external cue I recommend is that of a trebuchet, external cues will not ensure the musculature is able to create that analogous forearm movement. Internal cues related to stretch and release create the movement potential that "flailing" cues utilise. I want drills that optimise that internal cueing/movement so that external cues can be deliver the learning and performance outcomes desired by both the client and the instructor.

Great questions that go to the heart of casting instruction, my response is very much an abstract of an alternate casting model. Hope it makes sense.

John

[Paul Arden]

Hi John,

Yes that’s certainly different from how the 5WT sport has evolved over the past 20+ years, where the focus is the accelerate at the end of the stroke and not the beginning.

For me it’s very different. I find the longest casts come from delaying rotation, and then delaying power within the rotation until the rod butt has passed the perpendicular (to forward target), and then power is largely applied as torque.

Many of my drills are based around this. For example the Launch Drill shifts weight from back to front foot, front leg is bent, torso twists around to put rod in front of line hand, cast is initiated by straightening the front leg when the top third of the rod comes into view — and then it’s a rotational hit.

Cues for the power application from then, is to draw a line down from the skies to the target above the horizon (Excalibur). To reach out and touch the target with the rod tip (or thumb).

Those timing cues are also cues for beginning the haul. So I teach force is much later in the stroke, and predominantly delivered through the second half of rod rotation and not translation.

I don’t find early force creates a tail, usually it results in a domed loop.

Very interesting differences in there.

Cheers, Paul