Hauling - pulling fly line through the guides

[Walter]

Paul,

Just for the record, you brought up teaching, not me.

My apologies for going off topic in an SL forum.

[Walter]

Gordy,

It appears I’m already being chastised for being off topic. That discussion is probably best suited for the technical analysis board. It would probably also be a good thing to have a discussion about data capture and analysis there anyway.

[Walter]

Several times when describing the definition of a haul the phrase, ”hauling the line through the guides increases line speed" is used.

By that definition, is it possible to haul and NOT have the line travel through the guides; basically the rod motion would have to travel faster than the haul line speed?

Lou

It is physically possible to haul and NOT have line travel through the guides. You would begin with slide loading with the rod hand. For those who are unfamiliar with that term it involves “sliding” the rod forward along the line as the line is unrolling on the back cast in order to position the rod hand for the start of the forward cast. While the rod hand is slide loading the speed and direction of the line through the guides would be controlled by the speed of the rod and line hands relative to each other.

Assuming that the two hands are moving in the horizontal direction in the direction of the pending forward cast and that the rod and the section of line it is sliding along are both horizontal then there are three possibilities:

1) the line hand is moving faster than the rod hand so the line hand is pulling line through the guides from the tip towards the butt,
2) the line and rod hands are both moving at the same speed so that no line is being pulled through the guides even though relative to the earth both the rod and line may be moving, and
3) the rod hand is moving faster than the line hand so that relative to the rod the line is moving, or sliding, from the butt towards the tip.

Not sure if any of that has value with respect to casting but I think you were asking the question more out of curiosity than practical application.

[Paul Arden]

That would depend on your definition of hauling. If your definition of hauling is pulling the line through the rings by moving the line hand, then it’s possible to move the line hand without pulling the line through the rings, ie line hand movement not making a haul. Same thing, depends on a definition which we don’t have yet of course!

I think Vince brought up teaching! If it was me then it’s probably worth mentioning I spend a lot of time teaching the double haul. Teaching it to beginners is totally different to teaching it to a high level. You can’t teach to build a stroke around the haul until you’ve taught weight shift and body rotation. But I teach the double haul long before that. I don’t even teach pattern in any great shape or form to a beginner. This stuff happens much later in their progression.

If I was to take for example a complete beginner and coach them on a regular basis, I think it would take at least 2-3 years before I would be in the position to rebuild their stroke around the haul. Hundreds of hours of training has to have happened. Typical student level to rebuild would be a CI. Not training for CI but successfully there. And even then not always the case.

The double haul is taught rather poorly on the whole. It seems like once we’ve got someone going down-up down-up that’s the end of it. But really that’s just the beginning.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

I can’t take the credit for bringing up teaching, it was Graeme

https://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/vi ... =50#p79380

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Ah it had to be Graeme Most self taught haulers haul only on the backcast, or at best ineffectively on the front. It’s usually half a haul and rushed. The backcast haul is away from the rod, whereas the front cast haul is usually in the same direction and not accomplishing anything. Timing is a bit off but can be fixed.

One of the issues with Open Stance is that without body rotation it’s difficult to haul away from the rod on the forward cast.

The next issue I see is with casters who have be taught to haul and position hands together at the end of the backcast loop unroll. Now the hauling arm pattern is a swing of the shoulder, bringing the hand sweeping across their body to finish either in front of their body or else near their side. Very common.

Fixing this immediately puts ten feet on their cast. All they need to do put a bend in the elbow, rotate the torso so the rod is in front of the line and wollop: 10’ gain. Tweak the timing and create a few drills and that’s in the bank. There aren’t many ways to gain ten feet in one lesson!!

Cheers, Paul

[Lou Bruno]

Several times when describing the definition of a haul the phrase, ”hauling the line through the guides increases line speed" is used.

By that definition, is it possible to haul and NOT have the line travel through the guides; basically the rod motion would have to travel faster than the haul line speed?

Lou

It is physically possible to haul and NOT have line travel through the guides. You would begin with slide loading with the rod hand. For those who are unfamiliar with that term it involves “sliding” the rod forward along the line as the line is unrolling on the back cast in order to position the rod hand for the start of the forward cast. While the rod hand is slide loading the speed and direction of the line through the guides would be controlled by the speed of the rod and line hands relative to each other.

Assuming that the two hands are moving in the horizontal direction in the direction of the pending forward cast and that the rod and the section of line it is sliding along are both horizontal then there are three possibilities:

1) the line hand is moving faster than the rod hand so the line hand is pulling line through the guides from the tip towards the butt,
2) the line and rod hands are both moving at the same speed so that no line is being pulled through the guides even though relative to the earth both the rod and line may be moving, and
3) the rod hand is moving faster than the line hand so that relative to the rod the line is moving, or sliding, from the butt towards the tip.

Not sure if any of that has value with respect to casting but I think you were asking the question more out of curiosity than practical application.

Walter

Good reply, and yes asking out of curiosity. I've spent time reading previous SL post on different topics. Especially in this category and the Teaching category. Doing so helps my understanding and my casting. If I didn't ask this question I would have missed out on some of the important points mentioned.
I think it's pretty cool... learning the fine points of casting. Not just casting without any thought on how to improve, where to improve and what to improve. Again getting and having access to some of the best casters...is pretty cool stuff.

Lou

[Lou Bruno]

The double haul is taught rather poorly on the whole. It seems like once we’ve got someone going down-up down-up that’s the end of it. But really that’s just the beginning.

Cheers, Paul

This is why I asked this question. This discussion has taken my hauling awareness to a higher level.

Lou

[Torsten]

Hi John,

as witten in the physics section, different techniques for different purposes, you can't compare them IMHO.

Feuerstein's haul is related to off-shoulder or backhand casting, that means for a right handed caster you move the rod across the left shoulder while facing the target with your body. Often required in practical fishing, e.g. when the wind is blowing towards the rod hand side or when I'm river fishing from the bank and the river is on the left side of my body. You can solve this also alternatively by back casting, disadvantage is then your shoulders are not facing the target.
Now the question is, if a high haul hand position is better than a low one - I've tried this yesterday - has pro and cons. An argument for it is that the shooting position of the line is better, the line has not to be lifted upward. Another interesting property is, that you can "passively" haul, just by keeping the hand about head height.

Greetings,
Torsten

No Walter definitely not. Johansson's technique is far more performance enhancing than Feuerstein's hauling technique.

My comments in post 44 pertain solely to Feuerstein's hauling movement pattern. He uses a long movement but it generates less speed than a different, shorter movement would for the same speed outcome, because he uses poor body structure in his hauling movement.

Anyone using Feuerstein's hauling technique as their standard, model hauling technique will never achieve their hauling performance potential.

It is just wrong.

[John Waters]

Hi John,

as witten in the physics section, different techniques for different purposes, you can't compare them IMHO.

Feuerstein's haul is related to off-shoulder or backhand casting, that means for a right handed caster you move the rod across the left shoulder while facing the target with your body. Often required in practical fishing, e.g. when the wind is blowing towards the rod hand side or when I'm river fishing from the bank and the river is on the left side of my body. You can solve this also alternatively by back casting, disadvantage is then your shoulders are not facing the target.
Now the question is, if a high haul hand position is better than a low one - I've tried this yesterday - has pro and cons. An argument for it is that the shooting position of the line is better, the line has not to be lifted upward. Another interesting property is, that you can "passively" haul, just by keeping the hand about head height.

Greetings,
Torsten

No Walter definitely not. Johansson's technique is far more performance enhancing than Feuerstein's hauling technique.

My comments in post 44 pertain solely to Feuerstein's hauling movement pattern. He uses a long movement but it generates less speed than a different, shorter movement would for the same speed outcome, because he uses poor body structure in his hauling movement.

Anyone using Feuerstein's hauling technique as their standard, model hauling technique will never achieve their hauling performance potential.

It is just wrong.

Hi Torsten,

There are a number of situations that mean the fisher modifies their standard or model casting technique. However to use GF’s haul technique as your standard is the wrong choice to make if you want your standard stroke to deliver the best performance outcomes possible. As I said a number of posts back, I’ve used it for short casting but as an exception, not the rule. I would trade off the release height of the line for haul hand speed in the vast majority of situations, but haul release height and positioning is an interesting topic and worthy of specific discussion. The problem with keeping the haul at head height throughout the hauling movement as GF advocates is the negative impact on shoulder health.

John