PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!
Measuring the Haul
Moderator: Torsten
Re: Measuring the Haul
Well really John, in #46 you have compared Johansson's technique which isn't backhand and casting sport related. You'd probably need to compare two backhand techniques, still I don't know why this is relevant for this topic.
Re: Measuring the Haul
Torsten,Torsten wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:21 am Hi,
I have no idea why you guys want to compare two very different techniques for different purposes - apples to oranges. One being an off-shoulder cast for special fishing situations and the other a casting sport technique (5wt line / tarpon rod). Better continue this in the flycasting section.
I’m not sure why Gordy keeps bringing up the GF technique in this thread either. I think I’ve said all I have say about measuring the haul and trying to establish a little bit of formalism and definitions in order to move on to the topIc I started expressly for evaluating the haul. That would include comparing and contrasting techniques regardless of the purpose of the cast.
I was hoping that any further discussion in this particular thread would be around the definitions I put forward and how to measure the haul in order to gain concensus regarding evaluating the haul but this is Sexyloops and I’m just as surprised as you are that things haven’t gon that way.
If you prefer, feel free to move this topic and any other related ones I’ve started related to fly casting but if you decide to do that then please move all of them, not just this one.
WRT using multiple cameras that would be nice as would zebra lines but Gordy feels that with existing video he can get 90% or better accuracy. In the absence of anything better I’m okay with that.
"There can be only one." - The Highlander.
PS. I have a flying tank. Your argument is irrelevant.
PSS. How to generate a climbing loop through control of the casting stroke is left as a (considerable) exercise to the reader.
PS. I have a flying tank. Your argument is irrelevant.
PSS. How to generate a climbing loop through control of the casting stroke is left as a (considerable) exercise to the reader.
- Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19684
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
- Contact:
Re: Measuring the Haul
I’m not sure I understand, Torsten. I use and teach exactly the same backcast and haul for long backhand shots and a 5WT distance backcast. Particularly in imaginary SW, as well as here in the jungle, the backcast I use comfortably opens up more angles with higher line speed and more accurate deliveries.I have no idea why you guys want to compare two very different techniques for different purposes - apples to oranges. One being a off-shoulder cast for special fishing situations and the other a casting sport technique (5wt line / tarpon rod). Better continue this in the flycasting section.
There are not many situations when I would use GF’s powerhaul in preference. I would need to be deep wading and facing some structure. A wall for example. That’s a rather exceptional situation.
Where do you see the advantages/differences?
Cheers, Paul
- Bernd Ziesche
- Posts: 3436
- Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
- Location: Whereever the fish are!
- Contact:
Re: Measuring the Haul
Hi Gordy,
When I compare the GF PH with how I prefer to haul in that type of off shoulder cast: My line hand positions are in an area, which costs me less energy. That way I can cast longer.
I prefer the thumb on top (instead of the index finger) to support positioning rod rotation further back in the bc, which makes the biggest difference between GF his and my technique.
I have more path for my line hand in the bc, which helps to avoid slip by moving my rod hand down when I start rotation!!! Picture 2/3 show a position "line hand high", which lowers my energy level pretty fast. Nothing I want to use all day.
Picture 6-8 present the biggest disadvantage: Slip in a back cast that already is weak based on the rod hand arm limitations on the off shoulder side. How to avoid slip, when rotation brings the stripper guide automatically closer to the line hand and the line hand is kept high? The master of that style himself had quite slip here. Easily happens to me, too in that style.
Picture 8-10 shows the short distance to "speed up" the line hand. Not worth much.
The haul in the fc is better, but the angle of pull is very agressive causing increased friction and working against rod rotation.
If you really want to make it extra hard to position rod rotation further back in the bc, you take the index finger on top in my opinion. GF usually starts to rotate straight away in the bc.
All in all I hardly ever use the off shoulder cast in my fishing. I always find better solutions, especially on distance.
Regards
Bernd
P.s.: Sorry Torsten I agree you have made a fair and correct point.
When I compare the GF PH with how I prefer to haul in that type of off shoulder cast: My line hand positions are in an area, which costs me less energy. That way I can cast longer.
I prefer the thumb on top (instead of the index finger) to support positioning rod rotation further back in the bc, which makes the biggest difference between GF his and my technique.
I have more path for my line hand in the bc, which helps to avoid slip by moving my rod hand down when I start rotation!!! Picture 2/3 show a position "line hand high", which lowers my energy level pretty fast. Nothing I want to use all day.
Picture 6-8 present the biggest disadvantage: Slip in a back cast that already is weak based on the rod hand arm limitations on the off shoulder side. How to avoid slip, when rotation brings the stripper guide automatically closer to the line hand and the line hand is kept high? The master of that style himself had quite slip here. Easily happens to me, too in that style.
Picture 8-10 shows the short distance to "speed up" the line hand. Not worth much.
The haul in the fc is better, but the angle of pull is very agressive causing increased friction and working against rod rotation.
If you really want to make it extra hard to position rod rotation further back in the bc, you take the index finger on top in my opinion. GF usually starts to rotate straight away in the bc.
All in all I hardly ever use the off shoulder cast in my fishing. I always find better solutions, especially on distance.
Regards
Bernd
P.s.: Sorry Torsten I agree you have made a fair and correct point.
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.
The first cast is always the best cast.
Re: Measuring the Haul
Since we’re on the topic, I prefer to make off shoulder casts by keeping my rod hand overhead so I’m not body blocked.
"There can be only one." - The Highlander.
PS. I have a flying tank. Your argument is irrelevant.
PSS. How to generate a climbing loop through control of the casting stroke is left as a (considerable) exercise to the reader.
PS. I have a flying tank. Your argument is irrelevant.
PSS. How to generate a climbing loop through control of the casting stroke is left as a (considerable) exercise to the reader.
Re: Measuring the Haul
Hi Bernd
What do you do if you are standing under a tree, is it the same?
Regards
Vince
What do you do if you are standing under a tree, is it the same?
Regards
Vince
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” — Ernst F. Schumacher
https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... f-coaching
https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... f-coaching
- gordonjudd
- Posts: 1860
- Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:36 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: Measuring the Haul
Walter,I’m not sure why Gordy keeps bringing up the GF technique in this thread either.
Because his technique captures some of the stripper guide's speed contribution to the overall haul speed while an in-line haul direction where the haul hand is moving in line with the rod alignment on a forward cast does not.
When you calculate the haul speed as being the derivative of the distance between the stripper guide and the haul hand rather than coming up with an efficiency factor based only on distance ratios the advantage of his technique in producing higher haul speeds jumps out for me.
Gordy
Re: Measuring the Haul
Gordy,gordonjudd wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 4:08 pmWalter,I’m not sure why Gordy keeps bringing up the GF technique in this thread either.
Because his technique captures some of the stripper guide's speed contribution to the overall haul speed while an in-line haul direction where the haul hand is moving in line with the rod alignment on a forward cast does not.
When you calculate the haul speed as being the derivative of the distance between the stripper guide and the haul hand rather than coming up with an efficiency factor based only on distance ratios the advantage of his technique in producing higher haul speeds jumps out for me.
Gordy
I would say that’s more about evaluating the haul than measuring it.
"There can be only one." - The Highlander.
PS. I have a flying tank. Your argument is irrelevant.
PSS. How to generate a climbing loop through control of the casting stroke is left as a (considerable) exercise to the reader.
PS. I have a flying tank. Your argument is irrelevant.
PSS. How to generate a climbing loop through control of the casting stroke is left as a (considerable) exercise to the reader.
Re: Measuring the Haul
I don’t think that the stripper guide contributes anything to the haul, it’s just a convenient location to measure the output of the rod hand.gordonjudd wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 4:08 pm Because his technique captures some of the stripper guide's speed contribution to the overall haul speed while an in-line haul direction where the haul hand is moving in line with the rod alignment on a forward cast does not.
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” — Ernst F. Schumacher
https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... f-coaching
https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... f-coaching
-
- Posts: 2196
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm
Re: Measuring the Haul
Hi Torsten,
In post 46 and those preceding, I was responding to posts by others. Given the two off the shoulder cast techniques ( GF and a downward back haul) which of the two would you recommend a fly fisher student adopt as their standard?
John