Measuring the Haul

[gordonjudd]

Does a horizontal hand path that is opposite to the stripper guide motion qualify as having a higher effectiveness as compared to the rounded path that is in-line with the rod and thus does not capture much of the stripper guide speed?

Walter,
What is you view regarding the relative efficiency and effectiveness of opposite vs in-line haul paths?

I would expect the opposite path would prove to be more efficient and more effective than the in-line path on the back cast. As Graeme has noted it would not be so easy to use an opposite path on the forward cast, but I expect the "power haul" technique developed by Günter Feuerstein would have higher values than the typical in-line hand path we see most casters using on the forward cast as well.

Gordy

[VGB]

I expect the "power haul" technique developed by Günter Feuerstein would have higher values than the typical in-line hand path we see most casters using on the forward cast as well.

Measuring human efficiency is fiendish difficult but measuring effectiveness using distance is a reasonable approach. I haven’t seen any competition casters using the “power haul” to maximise distance are there any examples?

[gordonjudd]

Maybe you could use Tracker to test that expectation on one of Lasse's casts with a line marker. Both approaches have small errors that come from using straight line, 2D approximations to the actual distances but I think those errors would be quite small since the line curvature or z separation distances are quite small in comparison to the changes in the x and y values.

Here is that comparison of the haul speed obtained with a line marker and the tip top vs the speed obtained by the derivative (numerical out of necessity) of the distance between the haul hand and the stripper guide.

As expected the haul speed obtained with the two approaches where within 10% of eachother.

Gordy

[Walter]

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Gordy,
GF his power haul technique for the forward cast when casting off shoulder, causes quite some friction on the first guide. Since rod rotation is king in creating speed, I doubt this technique to be an increase in overall line speed. I learnt it anyway and do hit highest distance when not powerhauling.
Watching Günter, he always started rotation straight away and positioned it along his whole rod hand path. No need to tell, that this wasn't too helpful compared to positioning rotation closer to the end of the rod hand path. My feeling is, that using the wrist gets more difficult, when having increased friction. This taken into account it seems to be a consequence, that Günter blocked his wrist when accelerating against the extra friction.
For me it is more difficult to apply force to the rod on the off shoulder side of my body. Part of the reason why I get away with this better on the regular side when comparing different hauling angles.
Regards
Bernd


I saw a serious number of instructors try this technique and Günter tried to animate most his students to do so. I yet never saw anyone use it in fishing.

[gordonjudd]

I saw a serious number of instructors try this technique and Günter tried to animate most his students to do so. I yet never saw anyone use it in fishing.

Bernd,
That camera position makes the off shoulder "power haul" technique look even more unwieldy.

Do you have any videos of the haul hand path he uses on a "on shoulder" cast? I think that using a haul hand path that is more horizontal and going in the opposite direction to the stripper guide will produce more haul speed than one where the haul hand path is moving in a more vertical path. That is possible on the back cast but it is not so easy to have the haul hand going in the -x direction on the forward cast.

The point is that it is the change in the distance between the stripper guide and haul hand that determines haul speed rather than the velocity differences between the rod hand and the haul hand as was assumed in Ulrik's mems sensor approach to measuring effective haul speeds.

Thus more consideration should be given to what the stripper guide is doing than what the rod hand is doing when trying to come up with a complementary haul hand path to produce higher haul speeds.

Gordy

[Torsten]

Hi,

Off-Topic:
well, you can find several videos of him performing the backhand hauling.
Some of you guys haven't understand the context, his "power haul" is a backhand technique only, I don't think it makes much sense for the forehand cast. A backhand cast is not a back cast. Given the constraints of course it's asymmetrical. The mentioned competition casting is irrelevant, because casting sport has no backhand task (with the exception perhaps for the left side cast / classic casting sport Arenberg maybe). With exception of the index finger on top I'm using a very similar technique when casting backhand and hauling (for fishing of course). I'm wondering if friction is really an issue, most rods have SIC stripper guides.

Greetings,
Torsten

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Gordy,
As Torsten said, the power haul is off shoulder fc only for GF.
Hi Torsten,
If you have a new line, dressing on it and position the guides sideways friction may not be much of an issue. I agree. An older line, no dressing, guides in rod plane and I feel quite resistance. And I struggle in this uncomfortable position of my rod arm already.
HR Hebeisen (I think to remember in one of his videos) explained, that hauling down the rod is very efficient.
I agree with it. In avg. casting it feels excellent to me.

That aside I agree with Gordy's view, too. I said it some years ago: I use rotation to speed up the first guide away of my line hand. That leads to an increased impact of my rod hand to hauling speed.

Bottom line: I saw brilliant casting in both ways: hauling down the rod and hauling more in an angle in order to achieve best hauling speed.
However friction will increase and work against rod rotation. So I think we win one and lose the other to some degree.
Since hauling down the rod leads to a more comfortable moving area for my line hand when fishing all day, I mostly use that in short to medium distances.
On longer distances I go a bit more aggressive.

Have you thought about the "when to haul" and the impact on moving line hand and guide away of each other, Gordy? How about a late haul compared to a more early haul in terms of rotation to speed up the lowest guide?

Looking at the GF video from above, one may also realize the different possibilities in timing the start of hauling compared to hauling down the rod. A late haul seems impossible for GF his technique!?
Regards
Bernd

[gordonjudd]

Have you thought about the "when to haul" and the impact on moving line hand and guide away of each other, Gordy?

Bernd,
As has been discussed on other threads the peak haul speed will occur near MAV on the back cast since the stripper guide speed has the dominate effect on the overall haul speed.

Merlin's model says the max haul speed on the forward cast should be around MAV, but he thinks the timing is not too critical as long as it happens between MAV and RSP1. Henry's max haul speed was around RSP1 on the forward cast (he hauls through RSP1) and he casts a long way, so I don't think when the max haul speed point is produced is as important as the max haul speed itself.

HR Hebeisen (I think to remember in one of his videos) explained, that hauling down the rod is very efficient.

I have no idea what "efficient" might mean in that view, but hauling in line with the rod does not take advantage of the increased haul speed that is associated with the stripper guide speed.

A late haul seems impossible for GF his technique!

If the haul speed is dominated by the stripper guide speed in his forward cast then the timing of the reverse movement of his haul hand probably would produce smaller variations on when the max haul speed is reached since the stripper guide speed is so much larger than the haul hand speed. That is what happens for most backcasts.
Gordy

[Paul Arden]

I’ve certainly tried Günter’s “Power Haul”. He suggested it would be good for 5WT distance. I know Phil was experimenting with a horizontal version, and so I tried that too of course.

I actually do (and teach) a horizontal version on the backcast 170/ stopless backhand shot. If Günter was to reverse the grip and deliver a 170 backcast with the rod butt tucked in against his forearm, then things are not too dissimilar.

I do teach this haul to my students. It’s another variation on what can be done. It’s certainly useful when the water is over the top of your waders!

Cheers, Paul