Fly Rods - slow or fast action

[Walter]

Question

You guys are casting 5 weight lines with heavier weight rods? I assume you’re using the 170 style. Isn't that a bit hard on the shoulder?

[Paul Arden]

Not at all, Walter. Where stiff rods can be a problem (and I personally think of this as being stiff in the lower half and not overall stiffness) is on the elbow. Not really a problem with stopless, but it certainly is a problem with an abrupt stop or pull-back.

The only time I’ve had Tennis Elbow was with a TCX10. I fished it for 6 weeks straight with a 10 line and cast it with a 5MED probably 3-4 days/week. I don’t know if it was the fishing or the casting that caused it. It may have been the short line fishing. Certainly that’s when it was aggravated most.

This is one major reason why I think that designing rods to be very stiff in the lower half is a problem. It’s very jarring on the elbow, trying to stop such a long lever in the first instance. With a rod that flexes more into the butt the “stop” sequence occurs progressively up from lower in the rod.

So I did learn something from that experience. TE is certainly much more common now amongst distance casters since the migration to stiffer rods. I never heard of this in the past. It’s not a problem with the HT10 (for me anyway) but I have a “Rampage” T38, that I was using for T27, that will give me TE if I cast for too long. I have a T27 HT now in testing that is more forgiving.

Cheers, Paul

Edit: an afterthought. Casting stiff rods for Competition Accuracy causes me hand cramps. And I can only do this for limited time. Softer rods can be cast/hovered all day.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Just for clarification...

(Despite Paul's fine art)

For an ideal (minimum) carry with the MED - the length of running line between the rod tip and the line hand, at the point of shooting, depends primarily upon the amount of counterflex of the particular rod? (And secondarily upon environmental conditions like wind direction?)

A little more running line extended outside the tip might be better than the minimum, but never less?

Do I have that right?

Thanks!

[Lasse Karlsson]

I'd say no, as I want to release long before counterflex

Cheers
Lasse

[Torsten]

Hi Lasse,

we had this debate several times, so your hypothesis is, that the casting distance is totally independent from the rod stiffness (?)
How would you explain the physical reasons?

When I'm reading through the archive there are pros and cons; with the tendency towards stiffer rods giving a advantage for competition casting.
The 8x8 study failed to show a clear correlation, but they used in my opinion too few samples.

Greetings,
Torsten

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Torsten

What was the stiffness of the rod Bernt Johansson used to throw his personal best distance cast indoors?

My hypothesis is that the rod you use the most, will yield the best results for you, and that there is no 2 meters freebie in going stiffer, though I have been told that alot on this board.

Paul wants a longer carry to put the back end of the MED head at the top of the loop when at full counterflex with a softer rod. I want the back end of the MED at the top of the loop too, but I want to let go long before my rodtip reaches full counterflex preferably just before RSP1.

After Tor won the WC in 2014, everyone thought he had used a 12 weight, and started looking at stiffer rods. In reality he used a 8 weight nrx. Ronny Landin used a Hardy that said 5 above the handle in 12 to throw 44 meters. Bernt Johansson used a Orvis that said 10 above the handle to throw the same distance in 18.

Exsessieve counterflex hinders total distance, that is a clear argument for a stiffer rod. How stiff, thats up to personal preference.


Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

Hi Gary, yes.

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Hi Gary, yes.

Cheers, Paul

Thanks Paul! I thought I got my mind around your theory.

I'd say no, as I want to release long before counterflex

Cheers
Lasse

Lasse,

Dang it! You almost ruined my idea, but...

My hypothesis is that the rod you use the most, will yield the best results for you, and that there is no 2 meters freebie in going stiffer, though I have been told that alot on this board.

Cheers
Lasse

... sort of fits in with what I was going to say!

If... the rod "you use the most" is a rod that seems to fit your personal technique of casting the best... which seems likely.

The idea that more counterflex requires more overhang seems logical, but carrying more overhang with a softer rod seems harder - at least for me. So, it is sort of an inverse relationship. A softer rod might throw a longer cast - if the caster can control more overhang with a softer rod.

I suspect there comes a point where, for any caster, there is a sweet spot for control and overhang. And if the caster finds a particular rod that happens to work best at the caster's sweet spot, then that will be the rod that casts the farthest. Its not about whether the rod is fast or slow, it is more about the particular harmonics of the given caster and rod... if I can use that term here?

I had this idea for a while, but recent events really brought it home. I have mentioned that I pulled out an old rod because a current favorite went back to the shop - and quite surprisingly - I was casting farther with that old rod than with the then "current" favorite. Despite a few decades of technological advances between the two rods.

So... what happened when I switched hands and tried the old rod left handed? I again cast farther! In fact, I was hitting 100 for the very first time left handed.

(So, I'm putting Paul and Lasse on notice... all I need is a new phone and I'm posting my results for the left handed 100' challenge. I'm sure I can dial in the accuracy long before I can afford the phone!)

But... how else can you explain that old rod casting farther - in either hand - other than somehow it just jives with my personal harmonics?

That inverse relationship between carry and control is a bitch - but at least it is not an exponential bitch like line speed vs drag!

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Gary

I hear you, and if you take a look at the measurements I did with my 5 different rods cast for carry and distance, the oldie but goodie stands out. Same with your old one, you used to cast it alot, and that kind of practice doesn't disappear

Looking forward to the results of the challenge

Cheers
Lasse

[Torsten]

Hi Lasse,

Hi Torsten

What was the stiffness of the rod Bernt Johansson used to throw his personal best distance cast indoors?

My hypothesis is that the rod you use the most, will yield the best results for you, and that there is no 2 meters freebie in going stiffer, though I have been told that alot on this board.

Good question, last time that I was in Tallinn - I think it was 2018 - everyone used pretty stiff rods, the Norwegians recommended a #9 SW rod to me. The question is, if good or powerful casters would benefit from such a stiff rod when they have used it for a while and I think it's still unknown. You'd need a long-time study under controlled conditions (indoor), I think that would work only for a fly casting club with access to an indoor venue and they'd need to record their scores with different rods regularly.

Another pro arguments for stiffer rods besides counterflex are the higher possible higher acceleration for the stiffer rod and the same tip path, more stored energy for the same flex, a con argument could be the higher MOI for stiffer rods. I think Merlin tried to simulate this once.

Greetings,
Torsten