OSD

[Paul Arden]

That will change, Vinny!!

[Vinny]

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

[quote=James9118 post_id=80432 time=1710849825

I agree, and perhaps that's why I keep mentioning it. To me, one of the key discriminators between the two is the force input, with the '170' being much later than OSD. When someone has cast OSD all their lives, making the transition to the force input timing required by the 170 is difficult - I know I struggled with it.

James.
[/quote]

Amen to that!

I know I was "forcing" the back cast *way* too early in the beginning!

And I am still often failing to just let things flow.

I even think the term "force" is not really appropriate.

And, BTW... James - I never thanked you for leading me to that realization.

So... belatedly... Thank You!

[Paul Arden]

I don’t think the force application with 170 is later. At least that’s not how I see the differences.

OSD is momentum generated in the body, transferred to the rod via the wrist, by braking and bocking various parts of the body. The final and most important brake in the chain brake is the forearm followed by the wrist flip. Boom.

170 is also momentum generated In the body but the final element is the forearm flailing. BOOM!

Most casters don’t do either because both are trained and highly skilled/deveoped. Training each distinctly like this, helps both.

Force application and haul timing for me occurs with OSD when the forearm brakes. With the 170 it is after the perpendicular, and when the forearm flails.

Reigning in your typical caster’s forced OSD into block and flip increases carry and therefore distance. Developing into fully stretched 170 does the same, and arguably more so. The first is a fairly rapid process. Usually taking 2-3 months. The second is a longer process taking 7-8 months. Ultimately when you have them both working then you’re are in the driving seat. Because the 170 takes so long, and because it’s so useful in my opinion for shots/wind/backcast deliveries and so on, I rapidly start teaching this to my intermediate students. Usually by lesson 4 or 5 they have all the components and we can work on it a little bit every lesson.

I’m in Thailand. If the above doesn’t make sense then don’t blame me.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

I agree Paul, well stated.

I sound like a broken record but look at other throwing sports, they use acceleration and braking to generate much more speed that we do.

John

[Paul Arden]

That should come as no surprise John, since I learned it from you and Phil! Totally changed how I analyse and understand casting body movement. It also has given me more line speed on the backcast and enabled me to create some highly specific drills such and “Lift and Flip” and “Lift and Haul and Flip”.

Most casters start with the hand and follow with weight shift, which is of course backwards to what we want. OSD isn’t for me just standing in open stance and waving the rod around, it’s about generating momentum initially with weight shift and allowing this to pass up through the body segments, utilising a sequence of blocking and braking movements to release the rod hand and drive rod rotation.

Done this way timing the haul and force application is very easy, because the rod accelerates when the forearm brakes and we time the haul to coincide with this flail. It’s not later timing, instead it’s a different mechanism.

I see no mechanical advantage to taking the forearm to an angle further back for distance. The result of doing this is that the loop opens, and we lose carry. The only time I see an advantage in doing this, is on something like the Snakehead Shot, where the longer hand path allows us to slip more line prior to the Casting Stroke.

Steve is an excellent demonstrator of this stroke.


Cheers, Paul

[Vinny]

In Steve's demonstration of the OSD I don’t see the block and flip. It appears to me although I could be wrong, as if the speed is generated through the forearm with a rigid wrist

[Lasse Karlsson]

I see no mechanical advantage to taking the forearm to an angle further back for distance. The result of doing this is that the loop opens, and we lose carry. The only time I see an advantage in doing this, is on something like the Snakehead Shot, where the longer hand path allows us to slip more line prior to the Casting Stroke.

Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul

Why does your loop open when you move your hand further back? Thats weird.



And the reason I disagree with you, is that at full blown distance its easy to see the difference, but aiming for a shorter cast, it gets harder to spot the differences! It can be felt by the caster, but difficult to spot for the person looking at it.

Cheers
Lasse

[Vinny]

Hi Lasse
So you open and close with OSD, the middle being 170?
Vinny

[Paul Arden]

I had an interesting conversation with Steve about pull-back some years ago. He’s aware of it but doesn’t do it consciously. Pull-back will certainly minimise the appearance of the “flip”. This is where things get hazy because often casters are unaware of the nuances that they are doing until they try to teach them.

It frequently comes up when teaching that I am asked a question about my own casting that I can only answer by going out and casting. Change of direction Snakehead shots are a very good example of that. But there are many others.

I agree: things could be more defined. When you put the block and flip filter over these casts you can see ways to improve. (Steve has improved since then by the way; that was filmed 20 years ago in Idaho Falls).

Cheers, Paul