The Board

George C wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:24 pm I suspect 99% of the guys casting a fly rod have no concept of the need to get the line ‘positioned right’, nor even what ‘right’ entails. It is just not emphasized (at least from what I’ve seen/read) as an essential concept. It seems, rather, that instruction is aimed at making it happen indirectly without the caster realizing it is a major determinant of what is to follow.

I would suggest that this occurs because the fly fishing world is fixated on rods, when we are casting lines. Switching to line cues when teaching makes life so much easier. It’s an invaluable source of feedback for the caster that allows you to make cast adjustments in real time.

regards

Vince

George C wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:32 pm I should qualify the above before Lasse sets me straight.
With proper acceleration and careful power application a poor line position can be overcome. I recall Aitor’s video of avoiding a tail with a steeple cast or easterncasters video of throwing laser straight fly legs with a roll cast.
For most of us hacks, however, such refined power application is a pipe dream in which case getting the line in the best position to make a good cast happen is crucial.

If you are fine with being smacked by the fly.

Paul Arden wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:02 pm Aitor’s video of avoiding the tail (or depending on definitions, extreme dangling end) was possible because he allowed the line to fall into place, creating a waypoint. There are three ways. One is to do that, the other is to cast it there using trajectories and the third is to make a Belgian Cast.

Rod bend is affected by the force at the tip as well as at the butt. At one extreme you can anchor the rod tip and at the other cast without a line/weight. Mass being pulled by the rod tip will retard the rod tip causing the rod to flex deeper. Newton discovered this when casting apples. Or perhaps it was Hooke?

https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/science ... ng-newton/

Cheers, Paul

Of course its affected by the line, I just said the force was a the butt. Having to drag more weight will make it bend deeper.



Cheers
Lasse

Paul Arden wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:01 pm I’ll have to think about that but I don’t see why it has to match gravity. The line comes around the corner and it’s all subject to gravity.
Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul.

The physics behind the behavior of waypoints is well above me. This could get embarrassing but here is how I envision it.
Please sort me out if it is wrong.

In Aitor's video (sadly no longer available) there is an additional acceleration from gravity adding downward momentum to the vertical leg. Gravity is acting on the horizontal leg as well but opposed by upward motion of the rod tip and tension from the position of the rod tip relative to waypoint. This sets up a situation where the velocity of the vertical leg can increase faster than in the horizontal leg. If this happens the vertical leg will bypass the horizontal leg, pulling the waypoint down and creating sag. But this does not happen in the video. For an equilibrium to occur it seems Aitor must be adding acceleration to the horizontal leg at the same rate gravity is adding it to the vertical leg. Doing so keeps tension equal along the line and the waypoint doesn't move. Maybe.

For those few unfamiliar with this waypoint stuff, here are some links that are really fascinating and helpful for understanding what makes a fly line go where it does. Credit to Dirk Le Roux for drawing attention to it all.
http://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/vie ... c8f79bc679
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3379&p=56191&hilit=waypoints#p56183
and this one by Paul viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3792

Thanks for helping me understand this
George

Hi George,

Yep it’s unfortunate that we are working using our “photogenic” memories. What I remember was a shortish line (certainly not a long carry like Lasse’s above). Most of the line was redirected during the casting stroke by the rod tip. I seem to remember saying at the time, that if the line was longer (see Lasse’s video) then the result would have been different.

Which means I’m not 100% convinced that there was a waypoint there now. But it’s also possible that there was line left at the end of the acceleration that hadn’t turned the corner. In which case there was a waypoint. This occurred before Dirk’s waypoint revelations, so we didn’t have that tool in our box during the analysis.

Now I’ll have to make a coffee and reread the first part again

Cheers, Paul

VGB wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:40 pm

George C wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:24 pm I suspect 99% of the guys casting a fly rod have no concept of the need to get the line ‘positioned right’, nor even what ‘right’ entails. It is just not emphasized (at least from what I’ve seen/read) as an essential concept. It seems, rather, that instruction is aimed at making it happen indirectly without the caster realizing it is a major determinant of what is to follow.

I would suggest that this occurs because the fly fishing world is fixated on rods, when we are casting lines. Switching to line cues when teaching makes life so much easier. It’s an invaluable source of feedback for the caster that allows you to make cast adjustments in real time.

regards

Vince

Totally agree!

From Dirk’s original description (2nd link).
A composite of an Aitor cast (a different one?). In the video I recall, however, Aitor was facing to the right, using an orange line, the backcast was near vertical and forward cast near horizontal. The appearance was gravity fed line into the waypoint as Aitor pulled it out.

I think waypoints need a difference in tension across them to work……but I’m on thin ice here.

Hi George,

That’s a great sequence!!

As we can see the rod tip travel during the casting stroke is approximately the same as the length of line outside the rod tip. With Lasse he has considerably longer line and in his case we can observe the effect of a small dangle with the line dipping below the rod as the loop unrolls.

Is it still a waypoint if the line has completely changed direction by the point of loop formation? That depends how we use the term. Because there is also the situation where we can have line that hasn’t been redirected, continue to travel around a waypoint after the rod tip has finished being accelerating the line. Eg aerliesed Junp Roll with a long line.

Cheers, Paul

I agree with Lasse and Vince and some of Paul’s at the same time.

Rods “know” nothing.